70% of Christians in America believe that Christianity is NOT the only way!

June 27, 2008 at 11:34 pm 85 comments

Graphic Source: The Dallas Morning News Full Survey Data: The Pew Forum

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Atheistic Spirituality: A Personal Note 21% of Atheists believe in God?

85 Comments Add your own

  • 1. The de-Convert  |  June 27, 2008 at 11:48 pm

    The 61% of Southern Baptists was surprising.

  • 2. LeoPardus  |  June 27, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    I noted this survey the other day and was going to comment on it. I suggest that this link is the best place to start: http://religions.pewforum.org/reports That gets you right to the full report and the summary report.

    The findings are quite interesting in several areas.

  • 3. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:23 am

    It seems that there’s more hope for humanity than I thought. It’s comforting to see that people realize that the doctrines of ancient people are so often brutally unfair to anyone except those in a specific, inclusive group. However, with all of these Christians believing that there are multiple ways to salvation, feeling that women are equal to men and should even be able to preach and ask questions in church, as well as some who are accepting of homosexuals, how can they still call themselves Christians? They’ve moved quite a bit away from the central doctrines, and are approaching humanism (that many of them even despise).


  • 4. The de-Convert  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:44 am

    It’s comforting to see that people realize that the doctrines of ancient people are so often brutally unfair to anyone except those in a specific, inclusive group.

    I was thinking the other day how prior to 2,000 years ago, if you were not born in the middle east into the Jewish race, and learn about killing cows, goats, etc. to atone for your sins, there was no hope for your salvation. In other words, a very very very very small percentage of humans were “chosen” and the rest damned!!!! Of course, it’s interesting to note that those same people, once “chosen”, are now mostly damned because now there’s a new “chosen” people – Christians.

    Glad to see Christians are waking up to how ridiculous that belief is. Good start 🙂

  • 5. Blog Jumper  |  June 28, 2008 at 8:54 am

    This isn’t a surprise to anyone active in some of the religious communities mentioned in the survey. Could it be that American Christians are more tolerant than many non-religious people give them credit for?

    Oh, and Obi said “…feeling that women are equal to men and should even be able to preach and ask questions in church, as well as some who are accepting of homosexuals, how can they still call themselves Christians? They’ve moved quite a bit away from the central doctrines…”

    Central doctrines? The “Nicene Creed” and/or the “Apostles’ Creed” are the central doctrines of Christianity. Neither one of those doctrines mentions equality or sexual preference.

  • 6. Dee  |  June 28, 2008 at 9:47 am

    I find the number of SBC very surprising. Of course if you ask 5 Southern Baptist a question you will get 7 opinions, 3 committees will be formed to answer the question and the group will split at least once.

    BTW, I’m not in the 61% or 70%.

  • 7. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 10:45 am

    Blog Jumper —

    Please, don’t be that way. You know what I mean, mate. I’m sure that in your church your pastor doesn’t read the Nicene and Apostle’s Creed endlessly as a source of guidelines on how you should live your life. You probably use many of Paul’s epistles, which include a large amount of the bigotry that I was talking about (in fact, all of it).

  • 8. edwinhere  |  June 28, 2008 at 10:59 am

    “I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour.” — Stephen Colbert

  • 9. The Apostate  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Weird, the site keeps signing me off.
    Anyway, I checked out that link Leopardus provided and I didn’t get too far before I noticed that 21% of atheists believe in a god of some sort, including the 6% who believe in a personal god. Something tells me the questions were not so clear.

  • 10. Mike  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

    Dee and Edwinhere made me laugh. TA, you raise a very valid point regarding all statistical observations (which Justin drew attention to in his previous post). This is why one of my favorite all time quotes is from Mark Twain “There’s lies, damn lies and statistics, each getting progressively worse.”

  • 11. Dee  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm

    About the status: Amon Carter one time owner of the Ft Worth Star-Telegram allegedly said anything printed in the Morning News is a d__ lie. Of course being the owner of the Morning News major competitor don’t know how reliable Carter’s statement was either.

  • 12. Dan  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm

    Did you read that 1 out of 5 atheists still believe in God? I have something about it at my new blog called Debunking Atheists

  • 13. Jim J  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm

    The question is fundamentally flawed. In the discussion of ways to eternal life, there is only one way, according to Christianity, but it is NOT Christianity OR any religion. It is Christ Himself. According to His own words there is no way around him.

    The question, “Do you believe that many religions can lead to eternal life?” is a muddled question, which leads to a muddled answer. The correct biblical answer is maybe. The poll of atheists likely asked a muddled question, leading to an obvious flawed result that one in 5 atheists believe in some sort of God.

    In short, the joke is on the Pew Forum.

  • 14. panthophany  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Following up on Jim J’s comment, I think the Pew Forum did an excellent job with a very difficult topic. The Pew Forum notes the surprising nature of many of the responses, and have promised further and more detailed surveys to try to suss out what Americans are actually saying.

    As in science, just because your first experiment had insufficient precision to resolve every question doesn’t mean you didn’t learn a lot from it. You take what you learned and you perform more experiments, which will then raise new questions. The Pew Forum seems to be taking exactly this scientific approach and I appreciate their efforts.

  • 15. Mike  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    Did you know 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

  • 16. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm


    I will use the Christians favorite line…

    They were NEVER atheists in the first place 🙂

    Sounds like a sloppy poll to me.

  • 17. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:44 pm

    I’d recommend Dan’s blog if anyone wants a nice, hearty laugh. Life is too short to not pass up any opportunities at that.

  • 18. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 4:22 pm


    I didn’t laugh – I was seriously crerped out. Especially reading him gloat over another human’s life (George Carlin). Just another example of what I am NOT a Christian. I think I threw up in my mouth…

  • 19. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm

    Sorry creeped out…

  • 20. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Indeed, the George Carlin part was rather chilling. I’ve been watching all of his HBO specials that I downloaded months ago but never got around to viewing, save for the most recent ones. It’s a shame that what sparked me to do so was his rather untimely death. The man was a genius, and his takes on social issues such as religion were ususally quite razor sharp and on point.

    I feel that many Christians hold atheists in contempt and as some sort of danger and thing to be hated because seeing people stop believing scares them into considering the fact that their beliefs are indeed unfounded and quite false…

  • 21. orDover  |  June 29, 2008 at 3:08 pm

    The results of this poll surprise me so much and goes against everything I experienced as a Christian. At the school I went to we were reminded over and over again that ours was the only true religion. All others were false. Period. I spent my entire life among moderate to slightly Evangelical Christians, and I never once heard anyone say that they though other religions could lead to eternal life. They always asserted that they were the only ones that knew the secrets of how to get to the exclusive Heaven Club. In fact, their supreme knowledge over other’s was a source of much pride and gloating. “We know the ONLY way.”

  • 22. LeoPardus  |  June 29, 2008 at 3:12 pm


    One reason for people de-converting is exposure to other religions and other mindsets. You’re already a de-con, but this survey gives you an exposure to a wider set of minds than your old experience.

    I admit that I too was surprised at how liberal Evangelicals, Baptists, Orthodox, etc were in this poll.

  • 23. pantheophany  |  June 29, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    Thankfully the Pew Forum tells us exactly how they presented the questions. If only every survey that were touted around in the media were so thorough.

    My religion is the one, true faith leading to eternal life, OR: many religions can lead to eternal life.

    I believe you would find many (but certainly not all) Baptists who, for instance, might accept that Methodist faith might lead to eternal life, and would consider Methodists “a different religion.” I have often heard Evangelicals say things like “it’s not your religion that matters, it’s whether you’ve accepted Christ,” and while to outsiders this sounds like it must be a joke, within Evangelicalism it is quite sensible. So this result should not be shocking, and as with much of this survey, more investigation is needed to suss out exactly what it means.

    As the Pew Forum notes, these results might mean that Americans are a religiously tolerant bunch, or they might mean we’re a religiously ignorant bunch. My personal experience is both. Most people seem ignorant of what their religion actually says, and that gives them the freedom to entertain their natural tolerance. Bigotry is most common when it is enflamed by loud rhetoric. Tolerance comes when it is quiet and we can hear the truth within.

    I hope Pew continues this work so we can understand better. Of course as every researcher knows, successful research always concludes that more research is needed, ideally employing the original researcher.

  • 24. Derick  |  January 15, 2009 at 11:42 pm

    Jesus said He is the truth and no one comes to the Father except through him.
    Therefore in my opinion, we need to be born again and accept Jesus as our Personal saviour in order to enter Kingdom of God

  • 25. BigHouse  |  January 16, 2009 at 9:37 am

    Jesus said He is the truth and no one comes to the Father except through him.

    First if all, that’s quite a leap from Jesus’ supposed quote and your intrepretation of what is ‘needed’.

    Second, you obviously believe in at least some of the Bible, how do you rectify the other verses that would contradict your conclusion? Verses saying wotks are required to make it to heaven, for instance?

  • 26. LeoPardus  |  January 16, 2009 at 1:24 pm


    You’ve got a huge amount of enthymemic clauses between your first and second sentence. Many of them aren’t even from the Bible, but rather from the pulpit.

  • 27. Sipho  |  February 4, 2009 at 7:57 am

    I believe that only the faith that come after u receive Jesus Christ as the saviour & king in your life that can lead you to eternal life.Accordingly to John 5:24 says that who ever believe in the Son have an eternal life and he pass away from the death & also the book of James state it clear that even the demons have a believe and trambling in Jesus Christ but unfortunately they don’t save Him but they save the King of demons who is Satan. The faith that can change the world is only the faith dat u got 2 the book of Rom. 10:9&10 that bring salvation through Christ 2 the life of somebody & dat make a difference 2 someone life who receive christ in his or her life because each an every new day goes by power of the Holly Spirit accordingly Joh.1:12 & the is no longer live himself or herself dat person accordingly to Gal.2:20 but is Christ who is in charge in his or her life. May God increase u in making the Kingdom of God known over the whole world. Amen.

  • 28. orDover  |  February 4, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Is English your first language?

  • 29. LeoPardus  |  February 4, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Uhmmm… I don’t think he’s using English. 😦

  • 30. Derek  |  February 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    I’d like to know the percentages who don’t believe in an afterlife at all. Seems that believing in an afterlife is a prerequisite to answering this question in the affirmative.

  • 31. SnugglyBuffalo  |  February 4, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I think it’s just really sloppy English…

    It’s things like this that make me weep for our education system.

  • 32. GrandGizmo  |  March 17, 2009 at 2:03 am

    You can’t really call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe Jesus the Savior is the only way. I am shocked at 70% believe that Jesus is not the only way. This truly shows you how few Christians there actually are who call themselves Christians in the first place. It’s frightening.

  • 33. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 17, 2009 at 10:57 am

    Or it’s a good thing, depending on who you talk to…

  • 34. Laura  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY!! You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe He is the only way. Sad, very sad!

  • 35. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Yep, Laura. That’s right. You’re exactly right. You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe Jesus is the only way. You got that right! I was stunned!

  • 36. BigHouse  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    (Enjoying the Christian “talk-amongst-themselves” conversation going on in this thread 🙂

  • 37. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    There’s only ONE who died for the sins of the world! There’s only ONE who paid the penalty and the price for all our sins. There’s only one who was nailed to the cross and rose from the grave in three days. There’s only ONE who loved mankind enough to do it. There’s only ONE who overcame Satan in the desert though He be tempted beyond measure. There’s only ONE who left the Mount of Olives and ascended to the right hand of the POWER GOD. His name was Jesus Christ the Son of God!

  • 38. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    Check it out people. If you don’t have JESUS as your personal Lord and Savior, you shall no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Instead, you’ll be barbecue.

  • 39. paleale  |  May 4, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    Man, I’ve missed that. It’s been too long since I’ve heard some good old fashioned fundamentalist rhetoric straight from a fundamentalist. Thanks guys!

  • 40. northportphoneguy  |  May 4, 2009 at 7:06 pm


    I also have enjoyed the Christian cross-talk, as I always do. It continually reminds me how delusional I was and helps to keep me grounded in reality. Now I’m enjoying a guilt-free, god-free life after I escaped the lifelong indoctrination.

  • 41. BigHouse  |  May 5, 2009 at 9:10 am

    Talk about taking the edge off of hell by calling it “barbecue”. My mouth ia watering..

  • 42. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 9:50 am

    GrandGizmo, did you say Barbecue, I’m one hungry son of a Zealot. What an all powerful and all knowing God, He creates the human race who didn’t ask to be created and more than half of them is going to end up attending an eternal barbecue, this makes a “Hell” of a whole lot of sense doesn’t it…and why does it make a lot of sense? because our mind is not the mind of God. Dude please, you zealots need to take an hour out of your day and just think about your faith and critically question all its doctrines. By the way I’ll start praying to Horus for my salvation, that’s Jesus’s original name before he ended up in Rome.

  • 43. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 11:02 am

    Dear “Not A Church Goer anymore,”

    Horus was not Jesus. There is absolutely no proof of this fact you speak of. You need to do more research. This is absolutely not true. That whole idea is based on the movie Zeitgeist, an old scholar named Gerald Massey and books by Acharya S. All of these things you say are totally coming from them. As for Acharya (D. Murdoch), she was the laughing stock of Rutdger’s University, because none of her stated facts were supportable, especially the one about Jesus being like Horus and the Sun of God being the Son of God. This is just her drawing such a comparison based on Gerald Massey’s research. As for Horus ending up in Rome, there is no proof Horus every visited Rome. And, by the dating, I don’t believe he took a vacation there at the time of Jesus. As for calling me a “zealot,” I don’t mind. I’m just giving you the facts. Without Jesus, you’ll either be destroyed by God’s fiery wrath or you will either spend an eternity in hell. I don’t know which one is true, but I wouldn’t wish either one of them on my own worse enemy. Jesus loved you and died for your sins. I don’t mean to be so non-loving, but it’s true. Without Jesus, no man shall enter the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus loved us enough to pay the penalty for all our sins. Don’t reject Him. You will burn or be destroyed. After all, if God’s going to nail His Son Jesus Christ to a cross for our sins, what mercy is left? He is risen! He loves you! It is a fact! He died for your sins. Hope you call on Him to be your Lord and Savior, because all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God. Peace.

  • 44. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 11:22 am

    Not A Church Goer anymore,

    I didn’t mean to be so harsh in what I said. The bottom line is that Jesus loves you, died for your sins and paid the penalty for you. Horus didn’t. Buddah didn’t. Krishna didn’t. Only Jesus did.

    ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved” John 3:16-17.

  • 45. ArchangelChuck  |  May 5, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    The mere fact that not everybody accepts Christianity — that sites like de-conversion even exist –says to me that the issue of religion is not as simple as GrandGizmo would like it to be.

    If the Christianity that GrandGizmo touts is the… heh, “one true religion,” then why does it need salesmen? Why does it require the threat of eternal punishment to boost sales? Why do its executives systematically indoctrinate and abuse children to ensure customer loyalty?

    These are simple questions that only require a degree of honesty to answer.

  • 46. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    GrandGizmo, I believe you’re the one who needs to do the research and lots of it outside the confounds of the christian bible! Christian religions/traditions/practices can be traced back to earlier religions (paganism), i.e. Egypt. Horus was born of a Virgin, performered miricles, died and risen as well as other babylonian, egyptian and mesopotamian dieties created before Joshua(Jesus’s actual name according to original Greek Text). Yeah I studied the bible, in both Greek, Arameric and Hebrew, being I was a Minister of the Good News for quite sometime…yeah I once had your Zeal, but as I slowy cut the fat from the meat I saw things in its true nature and disturbing is an understatement, many disturbing things surfaced in ref to Christianity, and that’s what led me to seek truth in the matter. I research heavily the history of the church, how the bible canons came to be etc, and how other “christian text came to not be canon”. You know that the numbers in the bible has meaning right?? the 12 deciples, 12 tribes of Isreal, on the 3rd day he rose from the dead etc…do some research on that and see what you come up with…What does Joshua say about the end of ages in the book of Matthew (True Arthur unknown, but don’t take my word for it do the research! maybe you’ll find something in the *horoscope* to help you out) The Bible says that God’s not the arthur of confusion, yet christianity is a very divisive and confused religion. What is salvation and how do you achieve it?? You’ll get 2 totally different answers if I ask a catholic and a baptist the same question. In either case, you’re programed and will not look outside of the bible (Written by man with an agenda); do some unbiased research on King James, research back to 1611 England). Do some research on the Wise Men who was guided by the star, by the way who were the wise men (Magi! what’s that??) and what was the significants of the star?? You ever heard of an Ankh? was that constantines vision?? Again I ask, why would God Create a race, only to send more than half of them to the pits of Hell? Dantes inferno is a powerful book, maybe someone can use that to control the masses thru fear!! Why is blood required for atonement??why do an animal or a human need to be sacraficed?? maybe we should ask the Aztecs or Mayan! GrandGizmo, sometimes you need to get out of your comfort zone to see the true nature of things, its called free thinking, by the way, why would God give us this brain, only for us not to use it???

  • 47. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    It wasn’t 12 disciples, Not A Church Goer Anymore. It was twelve apostles. Every Christian is a disciple. Also, even the December 25th thing from Acharya holds no water. No where in the Bible is Christmas (the Lord’s birthday) dated December 25th. Christmas is a man made religion.

    Also, you have no proof that Jesus (Iesus) was named Joshua. Just because the J was an I means nothing. It’s same Jesus then as it is now. God created man with free will just like he did the angels. We can choose good or we can choose evil. It is up to us. We make our decision. We either choose eternal life or eternal death. Furthermore, hell may not be eternal. It may be that the lost are destroyed and separated from God forever. In fact, the Bible talks about ashes, etc… Either way, it’s a horrible thing to be separated from God, because God is love. Also, Jesus died for our sins, and He’s the only way to salvation. I hope you will one day realize this is true.

  • 48. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    One more thing GrandGizmo. Greece been around for a very long time, way before Christianity, the New testament of the bible is translated from Greek!!research that also, you’ll find that the Apostle Paul who most likely didn’t right any of his epistles was greatly influenced by the roman/greek Culture…another simple thing you can research without going all out is the word Hell, if you’re a student of the “word of God” you should have a concordance handy to help you out…yeah hell in the bible is not your Dante’s inferno hell, but don’t take my word for it, do the research. To gain control of the masses, just give them something to believe in and tell them to never question it. (NACGA)

  • 49. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    Look GrandGizmo, you’re the one who talks about a barbecue, so obvioulsy you believe in the fire and brimestone thing and the 12 apostle title came later after the resurrection, while Joshua walked the Earth they were disciples, both words can be used interchangably based on whatever bible translation you use…(you really need to study to show yourself approved). As far as proof about Jesus’s name, dude its in the traslation, what more proof do you need, just because I’m not your Pastor preaching to you, doesn’t mean you can’t look that up yourself. GrandGizmo you really need to study your word if you’re going to get into the apolegetics game. Based on what you said about December 25th (Winter Solces, Pagan orgins)why do Christians celebrate it if its not in the bible? why do Christians celebrate it if its man made?…by the way Christmas is not a man made relgion; its a holiday celebrated within a man made religion! A peice of scripture: 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment.”
    It seems to me that a lot of Christians worship because they fear hell, this total contradicts 1 John 4:18…What a farce

  • 50. John  |  November 23, 2010 at 2:03 pm

    It certainly seems unfair that people of other countries and religions, who are good moral people, and who have never heard of Christianity, or have been raised with a bias against i,t are all going to hell for eternity. Yet the Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven. I am not a scholar, but could this mean that Jesus makes all decisions of who goes to heaven or hell, and he may take into consideration the circumstances of such people who have not heard of him, just as those in upper Hades remained till he preached to them after his crucifixion. That is a view that is reconcilable to both viewpoints, I think. But perhaps there are other Bible scriptures which more explicitly state that one must absolutely believe in Jesus, his deity, his resurrection, and one’s salvation. I am not sure. I invite comments from those more knowledgable about scripture.

  • 51. John  |  November 23, 2010 at 2:10 pm

    Certainly, most Christians choose salvation through Jesus to escape eternal damnation. However, those who choose it with wholeness of heart, generally are happy after the choice, realizing that God’s rules for life are more sensible and practical than what people choose of their own volition. But this can be said of most religions that they choose that religion to avoid eternal punishment or some afterlife punishment. Atheism certainly is not the answer. Only an irrational arrogant being could presume that this universe and all its complexities came to be without a superior intelligent force/being causing it. That all things emanate from a greater intellect is a basic law of nature. Therefore, atheism certainly is not a rational answer, but the response of rebellion, anger and arrogance. Therefore, some religion must be predominant, or perhaps it doesn’t matter and there is no afterlife to concern ourselves with (with God not having any rules or consequences for actions or justice or results). This certainly is nonsensical, as we observe through life that that a law of life is that there are always consequences for actions. Therefore, choose you the most sensible religion or belief system. I choose Christianity, partly because of bias, as I was raised with such belief, but also due to after the fact rationale.

  • 52. cag  |  November 23, 2010 at 6:33 pm

    So John #51, please explain why it is rational to believe in one god (the christian one) while rejecting as imaginary over 2000 other gods. How arrogant is it that you reject all these other gods and state with certainty that yours is true? While we are at it, please explain why your user’s guide (bible) has the earth at the centre of the universe (earth day 1, sun, moon and stars on day 4). Only an irrational arrogant being could presume that there are such things as gods, devils, angels and other sprites and supernatural entities without a shred of proof. Therefore theism certainly is not a rational answer, but the response of being lied to by authority figures at a time in life when beliefs are being formulated.
    I reject all religions because, like the thousands of discarded gods, your god does not exist. I reject your bible because I do not believe in blatant, obvious, pathetic lies.
    There was a time when non-believers were “lovingly” killed by the religious. Parents, wanting the best for their children, would lie and indoctrinate their offspring with the god lie. This was perpetuated from generation to generation. The killing has, for the most part, ended, but the lying to children still persists. You are a victim of this prevarication, and until you realise that there is no god, you too will perpetuate the mind poison. Think.

  • 53. kanna  |  December 5, 2010 at 6:07 pm


  • 54. cag  |  December 6, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    kanna #53 you have just disproven the canard that repeating a lie will make it “true”. All it proves is that you are a deluded liar regurgitating the lies of your parents. Allow me to simplify your message –
    Imaginary being is the only way to another imaginary being.
    You may want to take your act to a site where snake oil is an acceptable substitute for reality. Come back when you have figured out that you have been lied to.

  • 55. GrandGizmo  |  December 7, 2010 at 1:08 am

    Kanna is right.


    “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

  • 56. kanna  |  December 7, 2010 at 1:45 am

    @cag how blind you are …
    How can Something which you claim to be doesnt exist can become imaginary being .. If someone say something doesnt exist he says because he know that this exist. For example If Africa Doesnt exist it should not have come to our thoughts that subject of africa,. Similarly the Subject of GOD The Truth JESUS came to this world Because He Indeed Exists and Rewarder of faith Eternal Life…

    One who created me is Lord Jesus
    He came 2 earth through a virgin mary He took my sins upon Him through Baptism by John the Baptist Died on d Cross n rose again

    “I’d rather spend my life trying to serve him to die and find there is no God, than to spend my life in sin to die and find there IS a God!”


  • 57. cag  |  December 7, 2010 at 2:04 am

    GrandGizmo #55 go spread your infantile nonsense somewhere else. Quoting your shitty book of fiction and lies does not work around here. Your user manual is out of date by a few millennia, and is the perfect definition of FAIL. The first ten words of your bible states that the earth is the centre of the universe. Anyone who believes that is so ignorant as to be of no consequence. There is no information of value in your bible. May I suggest that you really read it critically.

    Your bible states that Lot’s wife was turned into a pillar of salt by your god. Here’s the deal – I defy your god to strike me down as I submit this message. I will submit another message after this one as proof that your god is a powerless, imaginary being, who, were it real would be damned by all humanity for bilharzia snails, anopheles mosquitoes, ebola viruses and all kinds of malevolent life forms.

  • 58. cag  |  December 7, 2010 at 2:33 am

    GrandGizmo #55 your god is not my god for a very good reason – there are no gods. Your god can’t even strike me dead. Now grow up and leave your delusions behind. When you realize that you have been lied to your life will be free of delusion.

    Kanna #56 – What kind of twaddle are you peddling?

    How can Something which you claim to be doesnt exist can become imaginary being .. If someone say something doesnt exist he says because he know that this exist.

    While your sentence does not make any sense (I assume English is not your native tongue) it would appear that you are saying that humans are incapable of creating fiction. Stop and think about what you wrote. The world’s literature is full of fictional characters. What you are saying (probably quoting from some christian apologetics site) is that all fictional characters are real. Can you see that such a stupid statement is less than useless in dialoguing with anyone who gives your response a second of thought. May I suggest that you at least come up with original lies rather than repeating prevarications that have been dismissed innumerable times. There is no god, there are no gods. Of the thousands of gods once believed in, you expect us to believe that one actually exists. The gods you ignore were once believed as fervently as you now believe in your god. Here is a list of Greek gods that are now considered fictional/a>. Then there are the Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Aztec etc. gods that have as much credence as your god. Grow up.

  • 59. GrandGizmo  |  December 7, 2010 at 2:44 am

    “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good” (Psalm 14:1).

    Cag, if you don’t believe there’s a God, you must be blind as a bat. The entire universe did not just pop into existence without forethought and creative design. As for you saying Jesus is a fictional character, even many atheists would call you naive. No doubt many atheist scholars with any intelligence have assumed Jesus did exist due to their using common sense. They may not believe Jesus was the Son of God, but they believe he was a man who walked the earth. If you say Jesus didn’t exist, you don’t only look naive to Christians. You look naive to people who don’t even believe in God. Jesus existed. It’s a fact. We have more evidence for Jesus walking the earth than we do for Julius Caesar. Ever heard of Josephus, Pliny the Younger and Tacitus? Give me a break.

  • 60. Ubi Dubium  |  December 7, 2010 at 12:49 pm

    Grand Gizmo, I don’t think you know very many atheists. There may or may not have been one or more historical figures on whom your Jesus legend was based. Whether or not there was is largely irrelevant. The figure you are bowing to is so full of borrowed mythology and later additions that your historical “Jesus” wouldn’t recognize it anyway.

    Julius Caesar wrote a book. I’ve read it. If your “Jesus” was bringing the most important message ever, you’d think the least he could do would be to write it down personally, so nobody else would write down a bunch of confused and contradictory versions of it a hundred years later. Sheesh.

  • 61. cag  |  December 7, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    GrandGizmo, quoting a book of fiction does not constitute evidence. Have your omniimpotent god present us with real evidence, not convenient excuses. Anyone can make claims if they do not need to be confirmed. What creative design is there in the universe? Are you thinking about those wonderful designs such as earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and plagues?
    I will admit that your god does serve a purpose – it keeps a bunch of deluded individuals generating excuses for what happens in the real world. How convenient that your god has all these properties that cannot be investigated, in fact, it’s as if it were a figment of human imagination.
    We are not deceived by the lies of clergy or the special pleadings of dupes such as yourself. Your omniabsent god has no power over anybody unless it is ceded by gullible individuals such as you. There is no heaven, no hell and no gods. You have no evidence to the contrary, especially not quotes from the bible. Give us real evidence, be the first in history to do so.

  • 62. GrandGizmo  |  December 8, 2010 at 6:48 am

    Ubi Dubium, what is the title of the book you read which was written by Julius Caesar? I’ve got to hear this one. lol

  • 63. GrandGizmo  |  December 8, 2010 at 7:28 am

    Ubi Dubium, the only publications that have come down to us from Caesar and can still be read, are his fascinating commentaries on his wars (e.g., De bello Gallico on the wars in Gaul and De bello civili on the civil war). The first text was written in Gaul, and contains seven books, each covering a single year from 58 to 52. An eighth book carries the story to the outbreak of the Civil War (i.e., it deals with the years 51 and 50) but is written by his lieutenant Hirtius.

    Anyway, you say you read a book by Julius Caesar, but no such book exists. Like I said, there’s as much evidence for the Lord Jesus Christ is there is for Julius Caesar. However, you believe Caesar existed, but Jesus did not? Are you really that naive? It’s one thing to deny the divinity of Christ Jesus, but it’s altogether another thing to deny he was even a man who walked the earth. If you’re going to say Jesus did not exist, you might as well say Caesar did not exist.

  • 64. GrandGizmo  |  December 8, 2010 at 7:32 am


    The Bible is not fiction. A work of fiction is made to entertain people. The Bible’s offers were not out to entertain people. They recorded actual historical events, and it’s obvious that what they wrote was meant to be totally non-fiction. You can’t say the Bible is a work of fiction, because it’s never been proven to be so. Also, the Bible you call a work of fiction has archaeological evidence to support its claims. I would hardly call that a work of fiction. You can’t call a book fiction if it was never intended to be so. You must have evidence that the Bible is fiction before you make such accusations. People over a 1600 year span aren’t going to write down all that stuff in the Bible if it isn’t true. What would be the reason for doing so? It would make no sense whatsoever. The Bible is true whether you don’t want to believe it or not.

  • 65. Ubi Dubium  |  December 8, 2010 at 10:18 am

    Wow, Gizmo, the preachers really accomplished their goal with you. You bought it all, lock stock and barrel. You have believed everything they told you to believe, like a good little sheep. Baaaaa.

    Yes, I’ve read Caesar’s Gallic Wars. In the original Latin, thank you. Caesar wrote personally, and was wrtten about extensively by people who knew him personally, both friends and enemies. We have portrait busts made during his life, and even an autopsy report! For Jesus we have nothing of the sort. The accounts of his life were second and third-hand at best, and not written down until many many years later. Nothing we have was written during his life, or by anybody that knew him personally. There’s just no way to tell how much of it was about a real individual, how much was borrowed philosophy and myths, and how much was made up by zealots trying to win converts.

    I really don’t care whether some ancient preacher named Jesus actually existed. There were lots of preachers in the Roman world, preaching various sorts of mysticism. That era spawned lots of different mystery cults, including the worship of Mithras, Dionysius, Isis, Christ (many different sects of this one) Hermes Trismegestis, Sol Invictus, etc. Constantine selected one sect of one of these to institutionalize. With this new power, that sect stamped out the others and we’ve been plagued with it ever since.

    The bible was not written to entertain people, it was written as a work of propaganda. It has enough actual history sprinked into it to be convincing for someone who already wants it to be true.

    And your claim that people that long ago going to all that trouble to write down things means that they must be true? By that reasoning the Iliad and the Odyssey must also be true. They have actual archeological evidence to back them up as well. Do you believe in those?

    Or, since those are clearly fiction, how about the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead? They meant it as true. They wrote enormous numbers of copies of it, and believed it was vitally important to be buried with a copy, in order to be admitted to the afterlife. If you don’t believe this book, you are going to be in trouble at your final judgment, when your heart is weighed against the feather of truth before Osiris. If you don’t have the right spells, the Eater of Souls will consume you and you will be dead forever. Convinced? I didn’t think so. Neither do I find your book of magic, mythology and propaganda convincing.

  • 66. cag  |  December 8, 2010 at 4:06 pm

    Giz, what part of the earth being the centre of the universe is not fiction? Read the first ten words of the KJV and tell me that it is true. You may not know bullshit when you step in it, but some of us are more observant.

    By the way, your pusillanimous god has yet to strike me down, or even infect my computer (of course I am using Linux and Firefox).

    I’m still waiting for you to be the first person in history to prove the existence of god, any god. Does the fact that humans have imagined thousands of gods, gods that even you reject, make you at least think that yours is also in that same category.

    Why would people write about Dianetics if it isn’t true? How about the Mormon bible, the Bhagavad Gita, Quran or any other “holy” texts?

    I am a believer, I believe in evidence, not rhetoric, not apologetics, not preachers, not lies. I do not believe the words of any individual that tells me that those other 2850 “gods” are a sham, but the obscure god of a tribe of desert dwellers in the Middle East is not like all those others and must be revered. Unlike you, I am not that gullible.

    I trust that you have a stockpile of stones on the ready, as Matt 5:17 – 18

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Luke 12:49-53 (King James Version)

    49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

    50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

    51Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

    52For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

    53The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

    For me, I believe in civilised societies, not theological atrocities. Your jesus is the pure antithesis of love.

    Your bible is a fictional work of atrocities and lies. If people lived according to that vile tome, who would not be killed by stoning? I reject your bible because I have a sense of decency. I reject your bible because I have a sense of right and wrong. I reject your bible because it is a collection of lies intended to subjugate ordinary people to the will of the clergy. I reject your bible.


  • 67. GrandGizmo  |  December 9, 2010 at 8:45 am

    cag, the reason God doesn’t strike you down is because of His grace. He gives mercy even to the unbelievers. As long as you breathe and have the breath of life, there’s a chance that you too can be saved. God can save even the worst of sinners, and he can save you too even though you be an unbeliever. When God wants to save someone, that person can’t escape His irresistible grace.

    You may not be saved right now, but it’s possible for you could be saved. There’s even hope for you as an unbeliever.

  • 68. Ubi Dubium  |  December 9, 2010 at 11:02 am

    Gizmo, if your all-knowing all-powerful god existed, and wanted to convince us that he existed, he’d be able to do that, wouldn’t he? So either he’s not all powerful, or doesn’t care whether we believe that he exists, or he’s simply frikkin’ not there. If there was such a thing as “irresistible grace” then there would not be any atheists. But here we are, so there isn’t any “irresistible grace”.

    An actual almighty god would not need lowly humans to make excuses for his failure to show up. Imaginary gods do. Santa won’t come if you’re awake, you know.

  • 69. GrandGizmo  |  December 9, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    You said: “if there was such a thing as ‘irresistible grace’ then there would not be any atheists. But here we are, so there isn’t any ‘irresistible grace.'”

    However, there’s something you’re missing: unconditional election! You see, not everyone is God’s elect, and not everyone will believe. Most will be lost. Only those who believe on Jesus as Savior and Lord and trust in Him for their salvation are saved. God has chosen a people for himself who will be fully redeemed by the blood of Jesus. He chose them in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the earth. That’s why the Apostle Paul in Ephesians writes: “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” (Ephesians 1:4). So, you see? Not everyone will believe, for the prophet Isaiah wrote: “Who hath believed our report?” (Isaiah 53:1). In other words who has believed that Jesus died of their sins, was buried and rose the third day? Who has believed on him unto life? Jesus said he who believes on Him will have everlasting life. He said: ” And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (John 11:26).

    And so, if you don’t believe, you might not be God’s elect and will remain a child of wrath. That’s not to say that tomorrow you could not turn to Christ Jesus for salvation. That doesn’t mean that you too can’t be saved. It just means at present you deny Jesus before men, and appear to be lost. Jesus said: “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:33). If you’re denying him before men, then obviously you fit into that verse, don’t you think? I would seriously rethink my unbelief. Christ Jesus died, was buried and rose the third day. He is the only way into the sheep fold. He is the only way into everlasting life. Don’t you want to be alive forever? You can. Jesus is the way to everlasting life. If don’t have Jesus, your life means very little. You’re just on borrowed time without Jesus. Tomorrow you could die, and you would die knowing you rejected Jesus before men. I hope God will move in your heart and draw you to His Son Jesus before you die. I wouldn’t wish eternal damnation on anyone. There’s no telling how bad it is. I don’t even want to think about it. Whoever will be lost will face God’s wrath. They await a horrible fate beyond the scope of human understanding. Why will you die? Why face God’s Holy wrath for your sins? Jesus took our sins upon himself on the cross. He bore the sins of many who will be fully redeemed. You might be one of them, too. Don’t keep rejecting Jesus, my friend. Please! Rethink things if it’s at all possible for you to do so. I mean, I know God is in control of salvation. But, maybe God might use what I’ve said here. Don’t be lost without Jesus! He’s the way to everlasting life. I wouldn’t wish eternal damnation on anyone, but God is Holy and can’t be around a single sin. Even one sin would send you to oblivion, and we all have much more than one sin on our plate.

  • 70. BigHouse  |  December 9, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Nothing like a dose of Calvinism to remind me how much cognitive dissonance must be involved to worship a deity that’s such a malevolent prick.

  • 71. GrandGizmo  |  December 9, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Why do you think God is a malevolent prick? You must not understand that God is Holy, and that He would be justified in eternally damning every last one of us. We’re all sinners. But, He is not going to send every last one of us to the lake of fire. He has chosen to save some in Christ Jesus. You say that’s unfair? You say it makes him a “malevolent prick?” Well, then, you’re not understanding the holiness of God and the fact that every last one of us are wretched sinners. We deserve hell. We’ve lied. We’ve stolen. We’ve had sex out of wedlock. We’ve done all of those things and more. God would be fully justified in sending us all to Hell.

  • 72. BigHouse  |  December 9, 2010 at 1:29 pm

    Thanks for displaying the cognitive dissonance in spades, Gizmo. Shining the light of day on evil beliefs is a good thing.

  • 73. GrandGizmo  |  December 9, 2010 at 1:30 pm

    You’re welcome. 🙂

  • 74. cag  |  December 9, 2010 at 4:16 pm

    Giz, the only thing less effective than your blather is your imaginary god. All these convolutions to explain why your god can’t be discovered. Hint: your god doesn’t exist.

    I agree that god is not a “malevolent prick” – it would have to exist first. However the concept of this fictional being is that of a “malevolent prick”.

    Grace is just another excuse for the obvious inaction of your deity. I do not want the grace of your pissant deity. Imaginary beings have no power, and only the gullible, superstitious would cede them any control over their lives.

    There is a slight difference between us, I believe in things that exist while you believe in things that do not exist. I’m still waiting for you to be the first person in history to provide real evidence that your god exists. If your god existed, what would it need you for? A true god needs neither temper tantrums nor sycophants. A false god needs both hell and sycophants, so your “god” needs you. I do not need your god or your concern as I have reality instead of wishful “thinking”.

  • 75. Anonymous  |  December 9, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    “He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself”. (Luke 24:25-27)

  • 76. kanna  |  December 9, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Albert Einstein said “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”5

    “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.”6


  • 77. cag  |  December 9, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Idiot alert in aisle 75. Tries to convince us with quotes from a book of fiction. Provide evidence! Your outdated, discredited user manual is not evidence of anything except the utter gullibility of a significant portion of the populace.

  • 78. kanna  |  December 9, 2010 at 6:40 pm

    Even after proving evidence you still ask for providence ..like a dog after feeding it still licks the plate …ok bye its waste of time to show colors to blind. and am not interested to cast pearls before swine. Judgment Day is Near . Repent JESUS IS COMING SOON.

  • 79. cag  |  December 9, 2010 at 6:49 pm

    Kanna # 76 here are some more
    quotes from Einstein that shed better light on Einstein, including one where he claims to always having been an atheist. What you are doing is called quote mining and appeal to authority. Fortunately for the sane among us, your efforts are so transparent as to be laughable. Jesus christ is the product of an over active imagination.

  • 80. cag  |  December 9, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    Kanna #78. What empty threats you throw around. Where are we at now, 1980 years of “coming soon”. How utterly gullible does one have to be to believe your harpings? What evidence has been provided? All you have offered is empty words and quote mining. Have your god come and see me, after all it is so all powerful and present everywhere. It wouldn’t even have to go out of its way. Oh, you have an excuse for that.

  • 81. BigHouse  |  December 9, 2010 at 8:45 pm

    Cag, and the quote from Einstein he did provide does nothing to point towards a specific vision of Jesus Christ as fierce crusher of death.

  • 82. cag  |  December 10, 2010 at 1:23 am

    BigHouse #81 it is even worse than just a selected quote, it is an attribution similar to the Darwin Deathbed Conversion from Lady Hope. To quote either of these “attributions” is intellectually dishonest, especially if quoted without indication of the attribution. Typical of christians, they lie either directly or by omission. Here is the quote in full detail.

    “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”

    Albert Einstein, according to the testimony of Prince Hubertus of Lowenstein; as quoted by Ronald W. Clark, Einstein: The Life and Times, New York: World Publishing Company, 1971, p. 425.

    And from wikipedia we get

    Prince Hubertus zu Loewenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg (October 14, 1906 – November 28, 1984) was a German historian and political figure who was an early opponent of Adolf Hitler. He fled Germany and helped to promote anti Nazism in the United States. He was a former member of Parliament, and was the author of over 40 books. He was the head of the Free German Authors Association, and was decorated by Pope John XXIII for work toward reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox church.

    That puts a little different spin on the quote, reducing its value to zero. It is no wonder that christianity has apologetics, they have so much to apologise for.

  • 83. Steven  |  December 10, 2010 at 9:46 am


    Article is too lengthy to post here.

    love joy peace to you!

  • 84. jeff  |  March 27, 2011 at 9:27 pm

    1 cor2 mind of CHRIST preached internlly and john 16 sais the spirit o ruth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 lying prophets of ISRAEL my word is not inside them saying god sais god sais god sais wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM thie WORDS. all of this is EASILY verifyable.

  • 85. Admin  |  September 22, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    In legalism and denominational-ism there is a trap we can get caught up in, what I call the “us four and no more syndrome” and what we can find ourselves thinking is that, our way is the only way. That is a major stumbling block to growth and depth and Paul warned against this very issue.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

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Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.



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