Does public prayer go against the Bible?

January 21, 2008 at 3:57 pm 163 comments

Schoolgirl prayingLet us try something on this topic this time, shall we?

(5)”And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6)But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (7)And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. (8)Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. – Matthew 6.5-8 NASB

Much of the religious talk going on from the presidential candidates has to do with the fact that Iowa, whose caucus was 3 January, and several other Bible-Belt states are a state full of evangelicals (that’s what the media is portraying, I guess). Many of these people are older and grew up in an era when schools, football games, and other major public venues and events had a time set aside for public prayer. Unfortunately, thanks to various lawsuits, people of Generations X and Y (the latter I am from) have grown up in a society that most of these events no longer have.

Both of my parents are very secular; my father went to public school while my mother attended parochial school up through the 8th grade. Both had prayer during homeroom before the school started for the day. (They also had to say the Pledge of Allegiance whether they wanted to or not. It was the law of the time.) Guess what? Both my parents wish schools had public prayer, or at least the more inclusive “moment of silence” to start the day off with.

Most of my friends, family, church members, and others around here (eastern Washington is much more conservative/traditional than the western half, remember) want that back, but because of the liberals out west, state law still no longer allows it. (Such is considered “violation of church and state”.)

Here’s what I do not get. How come what Jesus stated in the passage above – and I think I gave a good passage to read, not just a one-liner like many other bloggers do – states that His followers are to “go into your room, close the door and pray to [their] Father”? (Matthew 6.6 NASB) I mean, group prayer like dinners at public places I guess is okay — but do you need to speak so loud for the whole dining area to hear you? To the rest of us you appear something like the ancient Pharisees, as in you appear to be self-righteous.

Before I state the next thing, let me tell you I am very limited in my Bible knowledge, so I may be wrong. Tell me where public prayer is encouraged, I will look it up, and I will post an updated opinion, capisce?

People who are asking – even demanding for – public prayer are asking for something that perhaps is contrary to what their “Lord and Savior” tells them to do.

– Jersey

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Jesus Is The Weigh Changing the way you think (renewing the mind)

163 Comments Add your own

  • 1. asymptosis  |  January 21, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    I am inclined to agree. Of course, in Australia, we don’t have the same problem with public prayer that I believe the USA does. Still, the passage you gave isn’t the only one in which Jesus advises stealth in the conduct of one’s religion. “Let not the right hand know what the left doeth.”

    Any Christian who is interested in following the example of Christ will not be drawn in to public demonstrations of “faith”, but will reserve their devotion for privacy.

  • 2. James  |  January 21, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    Your word in God’s ear!!!

    But this is just one more example of incoherences and contradictions in the Bible.

  • 3. LeoPardus  |  January 21, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    I can’t think of any instances of public prayer in the NT. I can think of several instances where JC and/or his boys withdrew for private prayer.

    By contrast, the OT has many instance of public prayer. Most of them occurred in Israel which was a theocratic state then.

  • 4. carriedthecross  |  January 21, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    While I think Christians often go too far in their public prayers (e.g. I worked at a restaurant and often tables of religious people would pray. Many times when they did, it would be very showy so that others would notice. Their prayer was less about communication with their so-called God and more about witnessing to those around them.), I’m not sure that the Bible condemns a public expression of faith, including prayer.

    Particularly the Old Testament prophets consistently speak of working things out in the public square. The objectives of faith (love, hope, compassion, etc.) should be realized in public.

    I think that perhaps that particular passage, in context, is more a condemnation of Pharisaic-type prayer that was intended to make one look holy. Much of the context deals with intention rather than the action itself.

  • 5. the chaplain  |  January 21, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    Leopardus’s point that Israel was a theocracy is a good one. In such a situation, public prayers at public events would not have been out of place. Since the USA is a pluralistic secular republic, not a theocracy, public prayers at public events or in public space, such as schools and stadiums, are not appropriate.

    Carriedthecross’ contention that, in the restaurants where he worked, “Their prayer was less about communication with their so-called God and more about witnessing to those around them” may have some merit, though I’d say my experience was that such prayers are about both praising God and witnessing in equal measure. Such prayers may not be in the same category as the Pharisaical prayers condemned by Jesus, but they are inappropriate in a pluralistic society.

  • 6. LeoPardus  |  January 21, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Since the USA is a pluralistic secular republic, not a theocracy, public prayers at public events or in public space, such as schools and stadiums, are not appropriate.

    I must differ with this. It is precisely in a pluralistic society that public prayers are appropriate. To shut them down would be to cease being a pluralistic society.

  • 7. artisticmisfit  |  January 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    The question says it all. Does the Bible go against the Lord’s Supper? I think it does. I can’t even read the word Bible now without shuddering. I hate proof texting with a passion. It makes me want to vomit, spiritually speaking. I think all fundamentalists should be exterminated like the roaches they are. I’ll be the first to take the job.

  • 8. karen  |  January 21, 2008 at 6:41 pm

    I must differ with this. It is precisely in a pluralistic society that public prayers are appropriate. To shut them down would be to cease being a pluralistic society.

    Public prayers are perfectly fine.

    It is government-sponsored prayers (such as in public schools) that are a problem.

    Heck, if Christians really want to see what government-sponsored public prayers are like all they need to do is visit a Middle Eastern country where the call to prayer is broadcast in deafening form from all the mosques in the city.

    Something tells me most Americans would find that rather obtrusive, and not appealing even if the call to prayer was singing the doxology five times a day (beginning at the crack of dawn!).

  • 9. Jersey  |  January 21, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    I forgot to mention every Sunday for brunch and do a group prayer in front of everyone. I always feel self conscious, like besides maybe witnessing, I seriously think others around us see our group as self righteous.

    While I highly respect others’ beliefs and what they want to do, I would rather not be forced to do it. Part of the whole ideal of tolerance is to not force others to do what is against their ideals and comforts.

  • 10. TheDeeZone  |  January 21, 2008 at 7:32 pm


    Does the Bible go against the Lord’s Supper?
    See Matthew 26:26-39; Luke 22:14-23 and Mark 14:22-25

    On Public Prayer in Matt 6:5-8, Jesus is speaking to the motives of the Pharisees. Their motive for praying publicly was to attract attention to themselves, not God. Prayer is to remove the focus or attention from oneself. With that said, sometimes a public prayer goes against the Bible, and sometimes it doesn’t. The example of praying in restaurant: it is possible to pray in a restaurant discretely and without attracting attention to oneself.

    As a Christian and former public school teacher, I get so tired of hearing from Christians how putting prayer back into schools would solve all of the schools problems.


  • 11. artisticmisfit  |  January 21, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    DH, I was being sarcastic. Public prayer, ie The Lord’ Supper, comes before, came before, the Bible. Forgive me, I am feeling extremely caustic this afternoon, bad experience this morning. I am tired of being labeled as stupid, apparently, by a certain someone.

  • 12. TheNorEaster  |  January 22, 2008 at 1:42 am

    I posted the same verses and discussed the same topic on my site on January 15th.

  • 13. David George  |  January 22, 2008 at 3:25 am

    Prayer is an action… not just words…

  • 14. thinkdeep  |  January 22, 2008 at 8:14 am

    What is prayer for? Do not pervert it for your own gain or vanity.
    This is a direct example of how some Christians cherry pick the bible. But I cherry pick traffic laws some times… I try not to.

  • 15. dionysius  |  January 22, 2008 at 8:43 am

    I think you are being overly literal in your interpretation of Jesus’ condemnation of the pharasie praying in the synagogue. His real point was not that one should not pray in public, rather He was condemning self righteous pride and pointing out that one should be humble in one’s prayers to God.

  • 16. orDover  |  January 22, 2008 at 12:55 pm

    I think you are being overly literal in your interpretation of the deity of Jesus, but hey, that’s the fun of interpretation.

    When I was in Christian school and we would be off campus for field trips and such, it was always a very big deal that we pray out loud before meals at restaurants. Our teachers said that we had to do it to witness to those around us, i.e. to let them know that we are good Christians and they are not. I was always horribly embarrassed by the show we put on, because I knew the motive behind it was to make us appear some how superior to those around us who didn’t pray, or didn’t pray out loud.

  • 17. TheDeeZone  |  January 22, 2008 at 3:05 pm

    I’m am a Christian who prays before meals, even in resturants. However, it is always done softly. It bothers me to be near a large group that has just come from church and insists on being very loud including praying loudly. They are trying to make a show of being a Christian. Another interesting thing about the these groups they often tip poorly or just leave a tract. Oh, like that is being a good witness. I prefer to pray softly, be polite and leave a good tip. I think that is a better example of what a Christian should be.

  • 18. Brad  |  January 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    As an evangelical bible-thumping (but not republican) millennial, I think the issue is so not worth fighting over. I’d rather my kids pray before school and get more out of their education anyway.

    Your quote of the bible was dead on and contextual. The real issue Jesus was addressing was the motive behind those prayers (i.e. letting others know you are Christian, rather than praying to your Father in private). Since we are allowed to legally pray at home, in our own time, what the hell does it matter?

    Leopardus also hit it on the head in Re: to the OT example:
    “By contrast, the OT has many instance of public prayer. Most of them occurred in Israel which was a theocratic state then.”

    And that’s why it isn’t as prolific in the NT, and why it SHOULDN’T be an issue in politics. There are way more important topics to argue about.

  • 19. choward  |  January 22, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    FYI –

    New Testament instances of approved public prayer (stated or implied); and by public I am taking the meaning of praying in the hearing of any audience (believers or otherwise…you’ll find both amongst these passages):
    Matthew 14:19; Matthew 15:36; Matthew 26:26-27; Matthew 27:46; Mark 6:41 (same event as Matthew 14; also found in Luke 9 and John 6); Mark 14:22-23 (same event as Matthew 26; also found in Luke 22); Luke 3:21; Luke 18:13; Luke 23:34,46; John 11:41-42 (this one is especially pertinent to the discussion); John 17; Acts 1:24; Acts 2:42 keeping vs 44 in mind; Acts 4:24; Acts 8:15; Acts 13:3; and I think I will just stop there.

    The most interesting thing is that Jesus, who made the statements about praying in secret, prayed publicly Himself. Did He knowingly directly contradict Himself? Or was He addressing praying to gain individual approval from men when He spoke of praying in a closet? Read Matthew 6:5 for the attitude of the public prayers He is addressing.

    And, as far as Christian being only a religion to be practiced in secret…Jesus made it clear that His followers were supposed to show and tell the whole world about their convictions (Matthew 5:16; Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:8).

    Now, I am sure that there are believers who pray in public just to be heard…or so people with think they are more pious or whatever. But many do not have that intention. They just want to take time to thank God, even if it is a public place. And if people notice, they only hope that God gets the glory, not themselves….at least this is the way I was raised, and the way I think Jesus intended it (again, see Matthew 5:16).

  • 20. choward  |  January 22, 2008 at 4:40 pm

    One more thing (sorry for the double post)….Amen TheDeeZone:
    “I prefer to pray softly, be polite and leave a good tip. I think that is a better example of what a Christian should be.”

  • 21. LeoPardus  |  January 22, 2008 at 5:11 pm


    by public I am taking the meaning of praying in the hearing of any audience (believers or otherwise

    Why are you taking it that way when it’s obvious that’s not what is meant in this thread?

    Since you said your collection of verses included prayers in front of unbelievers, could you point out just those please?

  • 22. Terry K. Moore  |  January 22, 2008 at 5:42 pm

    Yeah. . .what Choward said.

    The “praying in a closet” is addressing an issue with the attitude when praying. Jesus frequently addressed the hypocrisies in “religion”. It had nothing to do with keeping our faith secret.

    Does public prayer go against the Bible? No. Can public prayer, according to the Bible, be done incorrectly? Yes.

  • 23. TheDeeZone  |  January 22, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    Well said Brad

  • 24. Brad  |  January 22, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Terry definitely summed it up nicely.

    I think the issue can be resolved for both parties by allowing any and all faiths to gather for prayer/meditation/whatever as a group BEFORE class starts. If it is that important to th parents and their children, they’ll make the time.

  • 25. TheDeeZone  |  January 23, 2008 at 3:07 am


    That is still allowed as long as it is before school and student lead.

    However, there is a movement to bring study of the Bible as literature back to schools. I wrote a blog about it recently.


  • 26. Brad  |  January 23, 2008 at 10:30 am

    No kidding? Well, I guess I don’t see a problem with that if it is studied as literature in class… As an incredibly ancient text it has value in that area, but I can definitely see how that would be a touchy subject, and difficult to accomplish unbiasely.

  • 27. TheDeeZone  |  January 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm


    Check out the Bible Litracy Project. It seems that the funadmentalists don’t like that the text was reviewed and prepared by people of all religious backgrounds. I have a link to their site on my blog.


  • 28. Brad  |  January 23, 2008 at 3:22 pm

    Ahh…. Yeah…. you said “fundamentalists”…. that explains everything. For a group that actually has the word “fun” in their label, you’d think they’d be a little more easy-going…

    Thanks for the info, I will do some reading into it for sure.

  • 29. TheDeeZone  |  January 23, 2008 at 3:26 pm


    Kind of like that old joke fundamentalist are neither fun or mental.


  • 30. JK  |  January 24, 2008 at 3:22 am

    I’ve never understood the praying out loud idea… if you’re witnessing, why do it with your eyes closed and pretend you’re talking to someone else? If you’re talking to God, can’t He hear you inside your head/heart?
    My school prays before each class and takes requests, and when people pray for money I feel like sneaking over and leaving cash on their lap…

  • 31. Jersey  |  January 24, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    I think anything run by the government should exclusively deal with the secular. As long as schools don’t tout or fund such, I don’t mind Bible studies at schools (or studies of other religious works for that matter). I think if schools should allow gay-straight stuff, they should allow bible studies.

  • 32. locomotivebreath1901  |  January 25, 2008 at 4:02 pm

    “Does public prayer go against the Bible?”

    We’re not under ‘the law’. So in a word, “no.”

  • 33. Jersey  |  January 25, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    He who does God’s Commandments is a Follower of Him. Despite what Paul said, Christians are supposed to follow the Word — and Law — of God. Especially if Christians think they are inheriting the faith of the Jews.

  • 34. talkwithme2  |  February 13, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    If all of you are de-conversioning, anti-religious, etc..why do you care? I woul dbe sacrastic and say “just pray about it” but that would not be Christ-like now would. Nor is placing meaning behind people’s intentions when they pray. Your “self” is showing. Furthermore, judging what others do is equally offensive, scripturally so it seems. Now then, there are indications throughout the NT, that there was prayer for others, we are called to pray for others, and prior to any event that Jesus attended prayer was entered into, He did live according to the OT, let’s not forget that he was Jewish…Blessings!

  • 35. Irregular Times: News » Prayer for What?  |  October 28, 2008 at 9:25 pm

    […] USA TODAY there’s a photograph of two women standing in a public square and praying. The New Testament tells Christians not to make spectacles of themselves in public demonstrations of prayer; nevertheless we see these two women putting on quite a display. […]

  • 36. frank napoli  |  December 2, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    The Jews prayed as they were being exterminated during the Holocaust, a lot of good that did them? God is an imaginary thing.

  • 37. New to Religion  |  December 15, 2008 at 11:28 am

    I believe that public prayer in church is perfectly fine because, the bible does state that when you pray in three the holy spirit will be present. So a congregation seems to be just. Now as for when you pray for your sins or have thoughts you want to share it is best to be more discreet and intimate; as if you were discussing issues with your own father. As they say don’t put family business in the street. Well the relationship you have with the lord is like one with your father. And like your home, your prayers should be kept safe.

  • 38. Troy  |  January 6, 2009 at 5:27 am

    With respect to this thread many good points are mad on both sides of the aurgument which nessesitates expanding this question to ask if public prayer is acceptable in scociety?
    The truth is yes a Christian has the right to pray (even in public) No a christian doese not have the right to force thier way of life, Values or religiouse beliefs upon another, We are a nation founded on many things one being the freedom of religion and this is not just for christians look it up many of our founding fathers were not christians this right to freedom of religion also means that one who is not christian should not be forced to listen or hear things that belong in a church, this includes prayer If you wish to pray then do so softly so as not to disturb or offend others (God I am certain will still hear you.)

  • 39. Mark  |  January 22, 2009 at 6:02 am

    Yes that is true i beleve, and i found your age just trying to find out where the bible says its ok, and me reasion for that is that i see people praying out so louad and repeatifully in church and i dont think that is correct

  • 40. David Hannan  |  April 16, 2010 at 8:43 am

    An argument for public prayer is IF the people gathered are truly gathered together in “Agreement”
    and are asking something of God in the name of Jesus.

    Matthew 18
    19 “I also tell you this: If two of you agree here on earth concerning anything you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you. 20 For where two or three gather together as my followers, I am there among them.”

  • 41. kk  |  May 16, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    Hmm. Christians try to interpret straightforward things in a way that will suit their way of life. The fact is they’ve grown up learning to pray in public, so without being told that prayer should be in secret. So, when they come to learn this, they find various versus that have the slightest hint of public prayer and use it to defend their practice. Well, they have their reward.

  • 42. Isabelle S.  |  January 24, 2011 at 9:37 pm

    see here in America we have freedom of religion. ” congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excersise thereof. so as far as the constitution goes i can and will pray publicly because its my right. no one can tell me to not say that God is good and amazing ( which e is) because that is my freedom of speech. but as far as the Bible goes I am not sure that Jesus does not look fondly on us saying out loud ” Dear Lord, please bless this food to my body, amen.” so i intend to find out for myself without anyones opinion. opinion isnt fact.

  • 43. Jameek777  |  June 15, 2011 at 5:39 pm

    THE PASSAGE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE KIND OF PUBLIC PRAYER THIS BLOG DEALS WITH!!!!! The passage speaks of public prayer that is for your own gain, meaning that you’re doing it to be seen. Example: you and a friend are at a coffee shop and your friend asks you to pray for her. Then all of a sudden you grab her hand and start shouting the prayer for the whole building to here. That is the public prayer the passage speaks off, not the genuine prayer that we say before we eat, or if we happen to wrapped up in the Holy Spirit o anytime else. You also have to remember that us as Christians, should always do things decent and in orde

  • 44. Ubi Dubium  |  June 15, 2011 at 10:08 pm


    You are on the wrong website to be talking about “us as christians”. Take your “genuine prayer” and “holy spirit” to some other website that’s for “you christians” and don’t spew it here. Thanks.

  • 45. Anonymous  |  September 30, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    What is the purpose of public prayer? Is this done in order to pressure people of a different faith to conform to the majority through a blaring loudspeaker? I’m not saying that you should hide yourself when you pray, but do not do it in a loud and obnoxious way. A blessing asked over a restaurant dinner, done tastefully and for the benefit of like minded people at the same table is not at all the same as a loudspeaker at a football game where hundreds or even thousands of people are forced to endure the long-winded and sometimes insincere droning of a prideful person with a captive audience and an open microphone. The Pledge Of Allegiance, however, is something else entirely. This is not a prayer, although some like to draw it as a parallel. Our country may or may not be a Christian place. It is still the United States Of America. If you do not approve of the United States Of America, and have a reason to refuse pledging allegiance to it, you are an Enemy Of The State. So i support the recitation of the pledge in any public event. (I include this statement for those of you who did not read through the beginning comments of this blog.)

  • 46. CTC  |  October 28, 2011 at 11:35 pm

    Why is it always “the Pharisee” with you guys? You’ve been taught this, so you believe it, but the Bible very specifically gives these guidelines for prayer – it’s to be private, not at a synagogue or church or in public anywhere but your home or a private space. Jesus lived by this example as we can see in the Bible. Why do Christians deny the basis for their religion, the Son of God, for dogma?

  • 47. gee  |  December 13, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    this passage is talking about your personal private pryers

  • 48. gee  |  December 13, 2011 at 5:09 pm

    It’s says do not be like Tebow

  • 49. Floyd Adams III  |  December 28, 2011 at 5:13 am

    I am a so Called “Evangelical” but often get so angry with politicians that use Christianity for political gain. In these so called “troubled” times they seem to have missed the blessing of God is to be a blessing (they’re not sharing any money) The political right claims their system is closest to God’s government. Well God’s government is a kingdom. One ruler with their rules.
    I could go on so I better stop because I’m getting off topic. I think the best example of public prayer I could find at the moment is this to follow. The forum is the temple, but it is public. We might live in a democratic capitalistic society, but there are those that live under theocratic regime and suffer daily due to the forced religion upon them. Religion causes strife, envy, bitterness, etc that man is responsible for. The Judeo Christian belief is to give honor and glory to the unseen god who makes the most outrageous claims of creation, dominion and ownership as no other god. Here is what He says about what he sees and honours in public prayer; 2 Chronicles 7:14-16 (NIV)
    if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [15] Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. [16] I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

  • 50. tebowmanofcharacter  |  January 27, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    If you consider the “spirit” of the law and not so much the letter of the law, it is clear that Christ does not ban prayer in public. First, the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books (John 21:25).

    Mathew 6:6 is so misinterpreted, it’s ridiculous. People use it to condemn public prayer in school and people like Tim Tebow. People need to consider the intent and spirit – NOT just the words. It’s been mentioned above by others, but I’ll say again: try focusing on the spirit of Matthew 18: 20 Christ says ” For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them”

  • 51. Anonymous  |  February 22, 2012 at 5:26 am

    It is and always have been a heart thing. Oh God show them your heart.

  • 52. Ubi Dubium  |  February 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm

    “Show them your heart”? Show us anything! Show us anything that would be convincing that your god isn’t just your invisible friend. So far, despite tons of blather from believers, I have seen nothing that would indicate that any god is real. As far as I can see so far, they are all imaginary, and hearts have nothing to do with it.

  • 53. T.O.T3n1  |  February 22, 2012 at 4:23 pm

    Prayer is prayer. Whether its in public or by yourself. It does depend on what is being prayed for (IMO). Hello Ubi, you sure are busy here on these forums! I know you dont believe and thats fine, thats is your right. But as ive stated before on a different subject, ive been in Gods presence and have felt His Eternal Love. I pray that everyone on earth could have the visions I have had. They are not something mental or that can be proven by science. They are real as you and I are. But I know Gods Love and even though you do not believe He is merciful, we will see each other in Heaven. God does not care for religion. He cares whats in your heart and mind and that you do good deeds. Not only in His name, but because its the right thing to do.

  • 54. cag  |  February 22, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    T.O.T3n1, your coward of a god, as imaginary as hell, and as useful as foot fungus, refuses to show its non existent self to those who, in your judgement would need god most. You will not see me in any place that you were brainwashed into believing exists, because some book of fiction makes fallacious claims. Your bible, the fount of no knowledge, claims that the earth is the centre of the universe (Gen 1.1). One would have to be supremely ignorant to believe that the bible was anything but a pyramid scheme manual after reading the first 10 words. What kind of person would, upon passing from child to adult, still accept religion as anything but a fantasy?
    In case you are one of the geocentric universe dupes, please explain geostationary satellites.
    Not praying is not praying. Your life has not been enriched by prayer, just as mine has not been diminished by never praying.

  • 55. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 12:48 am

    @Cag: You do what you do to go through life yes? You are a non believer so what you believe what it is that helps you get by. I go to Mass because it helps me get along in my life. And yes, praying helps me in my life. As for the earth being the center of the universe, Genesis does not say such a thing.

    I: The Primeval History
    Chapter 1
    First story of creation;
    In the begining, When God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a might wind swept over the water. (Gen. 1-2)

    Nowhere does it say in Genesis or the Holy Bible about the earth being the center of the universe. It was man that said the earth was the center around.
    The geocentric (Earth centered) universe was represented by the orbital schemes of Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus 90-168 AD). Maybe you need to research what is said and where its at. I have nothing against you and you have your own right in what to believe (or not) But to call God a coward is hurtful to faithful people like myself. And when you have seen what ive seen and been apart Cag, you would also be a believer.

  • 56. cag  |  February 23, 2012 at 1:31 am

    T.O.T3n1, when your miserable excuse for a god cures all illness in the world and heals amputees, then I will be impressed. Until such time that vile imaginary bugger has no power over me (or anyone else except for what they voluntarily surrender).

    Do you not understand that the geocentric universe is a direct result of the lie that the earth was created before any other part of the universe? Have you ever heard of Galileo? He had the temerity to suggest that the earth was not as the bible stated, but just another satellite of the sun. That information didn’t exactly enamor him to the church.

    How could I possibly believe that it took your furtive god 5 days to create the earth and one day to create the rest of the universe? I can, however believe that the bible is the most cruel, deceptive product of spin doctoring ever created by over-active minds.

    If your god has a problem with me calling it a disgusting, vile, insane, imaginary bully, let it deal with me directly. I have no fear of the bogeyman under the bed or your pusillanimous coward of a made up god. I am not responsible for your imagination or the lies that you have accepted. They are not lies that I am willing to entertain. I am not susceptible to the poison that is religion. I’m not impressed by your god, your heaven, your hell or your faith.

  • 57. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 2:06 am

    @Cag: God created the heavens and the earth. Im not saying He made the earth first, that there is false. The universe (heavens) were made first yes? As for Galileo, of course I heard of him. He was a devout Catholic that was thrown to the lions because of what he said and proved. I will not continue to try and say what I believe. We have our own opinions and I respect yours. But answer me this. Im pretty sure YOU believe in what you can touch, taste, feel, hear and see yes? Ive felt Gods touch, ive tasted His eternal life giving water, ive felt His warmth, ive heard His voice and yes, ive seen Him and His Son. Ive been to heaven and felt its loving embrace. But ive also seen hell and felt it and seen its fire. You can call me crazy, insane or just plain stupid if you care to. But these were not dreams and as are as real as you and I. Take care friend.

  • 58. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 2:12 am

    @ Jersey: Ive seen what you have posted. Its the intent. If you pray at the dinned table with others (family, etc) all of you are just thanking the Lord for what you will recieve. The intent is to give thanks because you really are thankful. Now if you decide to pray out loud because you want others to see that you are praying and want them to think you are a holy person then the intent is bad. Thats all its is, intent.

  • 59. cag  |  February 23, 2012 at 2:17 am

    T.O.T3n1, The sun, moon (greater and lesser light) and the stars (what we consider as the universe) were made on the fourth day, according to the lie. The “heaven” as seen from another star would, in your interpretation, include the earth. Think about it.

    As to you being the only human to interact with god in the last 2000 years, really believable. Read up on mind tricks.

  • 60. Anonymous  |  February 23, 2012 at 8:40 am

    Ubi Dubium – This I know God reveal His heart to you. What would it take for you to believe me?

  • 61. Anonymous  |  February 23, 2012 at 8:52 am

    @cag, So who will you call on in that last minute when your last breath is pushed out and you can feel yourself slipping away? What would be your response if you realize that Hell and Heaven does exist?

    I have met many like you @ the moment you healthy and feel invincible, that will change, my prayer to you is to realize it before it is too late.

  • 62. Ubi Dubium  |  February 23, 2012 at 8:54 am

    First, Anonymous, you should use a name when you post, so we know who we are talking to.

    What would it take for me to believe you? My pass-phrase, simple as that. It’s a sentence in plain english, but one which is extremely unlikely to come up in regular conversation. I have never told anyone what it is, or written it down. But I have thought it in my head, many times. I just thought it again, right now. If your god knows everything, then he knows what I just thought. If you can communicate with him, then he can tell you what it was. And if he wants you to be the one to reach me, then why wouldn’t he tell you?

    So go pray and ask your god to tell you what my pass phrase is, then come back here and tell me what he told you If you get it right, I’ll be completely astonished, but I’ll listen to what you have to say. Or you can email it to me, since your god would also know my email address.

    Otherwise, I’ll just assume that you are another delusional person who mistakes natural forces and their own thought processes for a supernatural being.

  • 63. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 11:42 am

    @Cag: I know what you are saying and im not saying your wrong on your last post. I was merely saying that Gen. 1-1 did not say what you said. As for Gen 1-4, you are correct. But others, along with myself do not believe everything that is written in the Bible. Like how did we come from just 1 man and woman? And what about Noah? The Bible speaks that incest is wrong but then how did we all come to be yes? Thats why these are the great mysteries to all churches. Im a simple man. I listen to all sides and do not, and would not judge others for their own beliefs. And there is alot of people that God has spoken to in the last 2,000 years friend.
    @Ubi: Im just going to take a stab at your sentence because its fun. “What if we are all wrong and its the Space aliens that created all of us”. I think thats funny because I have thought that myself. Im a human and still question things to this day. But I believe in God and thats what gets me by everyday. I dont harm anyone or do I push my religion on anyone else. You dont have a god but you get through your day just fine and love life. Thats what makes this world great. That we can have our own opinions.

  • 64. cag  |  February 23, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    T.O.T3n1, would you build a house by first installing the carpet? That is what creating the earth before the sun and stars equates to. Would you trust a book where the first sentence is a provable lie? Don’t give me the allegory BS, the bible is a representation of the ignorance of bronze age humans living in the Middle East, and Genesis starts off with the equivalent of a numbered list. There is no way that any honest (thus leaving out apologetics) human would believe that a listing like Genesis can be interpreted differently than written.

    I find it interesting that your megalomaniac god would hide from unbelievers. Does it not want to maximize minions? I’m here, I’m waiting. Where is it?

    You are part way there if you accept that the bible is not inerrant. Why not go all the way?

    When I breathe my last, there will not be any calling on any deity. Why would I start lying to myself? Heaven and hell are human constructs designed to subjugate the masses for the benefit of the few. I do not buy their scam, unlike a large portion of the population. In my will it spells out that there is to be no religious liar mumbling lies over my body.

    Seeing that you have an inside track with your invisible friend, why don’t you direct it to me? Thought so.

  • 65. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    @Cag: Why do you get upset about such things? There are things we as people cannot explain, whether it be religion or science. Who cares. Just live a good life yes? I believe in what I believe and thats good enough for me. You choose not to believe and thats okay. Im not trying to tell you that you should follow an invisible god. Thats not my place. As far as directing Him towards you, it is not by my will but by His. As a believer I pray that He does come to you. Whether you would accept Him is your choice. As for me not going all the way, I simply cant Cag. Yes, men wrote the Bible and some of it may be divine and others stories to frighten folks. But I know what ive seen and felt so I cannot change what I do. Just like you would not change. The same question could be asked to you also, “You are part way there if you accept that the bible is not inerrant. Why not go all the way?” I hope that whatever you believe in keeps you safe and enjoying like o its fullest friend.

  • 66. T.O.T3n1  |  February 23, 2012 at 3:57 pm

    oops, meant to say “enjoying life to”

  • 67. cag  |  February 23, 2012 at 7:37 pm

    T.O.T3n1, when a 16 year old student can force a school to uphold the US Constitution without being threatened with death, then I can ignore the idiocy of believing in imaginary beings. As long as the imaginary being is being used as a reason to subjugate certain segments of the population, there is an injustice in the world and people of reason need to speak up.

    I accept that the bible is a vile, mostly incoherent piece of fiction, used to justify abominal behaviour by people deluded enough to think it of value. These same people convince themselves of the truth of their delusions. It will be a cold day in Fiji before I will believe in something as obviously false as the bible and the religions it has spawned.

  • 68. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 24, 2012 at 2:31 am

    @Ubi Dubium – I will ask God to reveal to me one question though? When He does and I share to you, please don’t come with excuses like – That was just a lucky shot, or be like the Rich man and Lazarus that always wanted more proof. Take it as that and then lets move on from there. I know we are not to Test the Lord our God, but for you I would pray my God to reveal so if it could show you that He is real and still Loves you – are you agreeing? With other words with out a shadow of a doubt will you believe then?

  • 69. Anonymous  |  February 24, 2012 at 2:49 am

    @cag, I know you are calling creation a lie, If you call it a lie then you must have proof that something else is right. I am quite interested to hear and see your proof on why your theories are truths and please don’t come with theories, cause theories is like you say fiction.

  • 70. Ubi Dubium  |  February 24, 2012 at 8:02 am

    Morne, thank you for leaving a name. Much better.

    If you actually do manage to get “god” to tell you my pass-phrase, and I mean word-for-word, it will be no lucky shot. My phrase is a sentence, yes, but not one that would ever come up in regular conversation. It’s very specific, and you won’t know what it means. You will not get it by accident.

    If you come up with it (and others have tried and failed), it does not mean that I will suddenly believe without question every word you say. What it does mean is that I will give what you say very serious consideration, because you clearly would be on to something that other people are not. (I would also introduce you to James Randi, because he has a million dollar prize waiting for anybody who can demonstrate actual paranormal or supernatural abilities under conditions that disallow cheating. The challenge has been open for many years, and nobody has won it so far.)

    Right now the world is a cacophany of competing preachers, each one saying “I am right and all those other guys are wrong!” I think you are all wrong, every last one of you. And if one of you actually were right, how could I distinguish that one from among all the others? That’s why I came up with the pass-phrase challenge.

    And the old “you are not to test god” thing is a cop-out for when god never ever shows up. Read your bible, it’s full of people asking for evidence that god was real, and being given plenty of evidence. Moses turning his staff into a snake, Elijah calling down the fire of heaven on his altar, Jesus doing all those miracles. A lot of us think that your bible is a big book of fairy-tales, because your god never actually does anything like that today.

    So give it your best shot. I’m not holding my breath. (Or you could just get god to make the tree in my front yard grow bibles instead of crab-apples. That would be pretty convincing too.)

  • 71. Ubi Dubium  |  February 24, 2012 at 8:30 am

    @ Anonymous (same guy, or different guy?)

    I know you are calling creation a lie, If you call it a lie then you must have proof that something else is right. I am quite interested to hear and see your proof on why your theories are truths and please don’t come with theories, cause theories is like you say fiction.

    That’s ridiculous. It’s not necessary to have proof that some particular hypothesis is right, just to establish that another is wrong. Here’s an example:

    Socks disappear out of the laundry. It happens to everybody sometimes, and we can’t say where the socks went. We just never find them again. I say that the socks are being raptured directly to Sock Heaven by the Invisible Pink Unicorn. If you call that a lie, then you must have proof of where all the lost socks actually go.

    See, silly isn’t it? It’s possible to say that somebody definitely has the wrong answer, even if the right answer isn’t known.

    And you are mixing up the word “theory”, the way most religious types do. Scientists do not mean “a wild-ass guess” when they say “theory”. Before you try to talk about science, you should know the difference. A “speculation” is any wild guess about anything. A “hypothesis” is a guess at an explanation that has been phrased in such a way that we can actually test it against reality to see whether it’s right. And a “Theory” is a set of explanations that has been repeatedly tested, over and over, and has been shown to be correct, or at least as close to correct as we can get it.

    Creationism does not even manage to be a hypothesis. There is no way to test it properly against reality, because any good test has to include the possibility that you are wrong. There has to be a possible negative result, and True Believers claim that everything, no matter what it is, is a positive result.

  • 72. cag  |  February 24, 2012 at 2:17 pm

    Thanks, Ubi for the “theory” repudiation. Anonymous, not only do I call creation a lie, the Genesis story absolute garbage, I also call Jesus a fabrication. When it is pointed out to apologists that there is no contemporary mention of Jesus, only decades after the so called crucifixion the stock reply is that the people did not write their history down, it was all oral.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls do not mention Jesus, yet they are written. So either there was no Jesus at the time of writing or there never was a Jesus. The point of this is that biblical history was written down before the time of Jesus which gives the lie to strictly oral history or if the DSS were written after 33CE, the Jesus myth had not been fabricated at that time.

    Why I am an atheist (a few of the reasons in no particular order)

    1. Look at the alternative.
    2. I am older than a five year old.
    3. Thousands of discredited gods that were at one time fervently believed.
    4. Different gods for different cultures. Eg Ganesh.
    5. Just because there are superstitious people doesn’t mean everyone is.
    6. The bible is fiction.
    7. I have better uses for my money.
    8. Earth is not the centre of the universe.
    9. Stoning people to death is not cool.
    10. I have never rioted, not even over a cartoon.
    11. Flying horses do not exist, except in cartoons or books of fiction.
    12. There is no god.
    13. There are no angels.
    14. There is no devil.
    15. Heaven and hell are imaginary constructs.
    16. I appreciate truth.
    17. My life is no worse and in some cases better than those who pray, proving prayer is useless.
    18. Religious leaders who lack morals.
    19. I do not have others do my thinking.
    20. TV evangelists.
    21. Ken Ham, Ray Comfort, Billy Graham, Jim Jones et al.
    22. The only consistent thing in the bible is the page numbering.
    23. Arguments are not proofs.
    24. No proof has been proffered in 2 millennia for any biblical claims.
    25. Jesus is no more likely than Superman.
    26. Christians fight for life rather than going willingly to their “heaven”.
    27. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.
    28. Physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology, knowledge.
    29. Ebola, malaria, polio, smallpox, encephalitis ….
    30. Heart disease, cancer, alzheimer’s ….
    31. Starvation, mental illness, lost limbs ….
    32. Earthquakes, volcanoes, avalanches, tsunamis, floods.
    33. A 2000 year absence does not make the heart grow fonder.
    34. Don’t tell me about the “boss”, have “him” do the recruiting.
    35. I’d rather have a dog than a god.
    36. I have no need to feel inferior to a thought experiment.
    37. I am not a (consecrated) cannibal and blood is off the menu.
    38. I use the products of scientific research.
    39. I do not subscribe to “if it was good enough for ….”.
    40. I’m not that gullible.

  • 73. Anonymous  |  February 27, 2012 at 4:36 am

    @cag. impressive portfolio – Yet, you have not answered me with facts, being aesthetic as you presume you are, amazingly going through your 40 points illustrate that you “DO” believe, the thing is that you believe in all the other things con-try to the Word of God. The word atheist suggests you don’t believe in anything, yet you feel so strongly about your believes that you are prepared to voice it. If you suggest that you have tried Christianity and it had no life, then perhaps you did not meat Jesus in the first place, cause if you did and not merely followed it as the mass has then you would have another spin on this. It is a simple prayer “Jesus I know I am a sinner forgive me and I choose to follow you with all I have” – try it.

  • 74. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 27, 2012 at 5:03 am

    @Ubi Dubium – exactly why I asked those questions. Can I tell you a short story. if I had a lot of Buddha statues in my house, upon visiting me will you make an assumption that I may be into Buddhism. How surprise you would be when I tell you I am Christian – Why? – perhaps it is contrary to my believes, you would not expect a Christian to hold those types of Idols. For the record I don’t. However you suggest you are an atheist, yet you carry Pirate signs as an illustration of rebellion. My gut tells me something – if you harbour and keep demonic signs and enjoy their look just like the man who loves Buddha statues – my friend you are under an illusion. If you feel that Christianity is a Controlling substance – which I know is not true, you better check again, because satan is a very controlling spirit. We as true Christian lay down our lives voluntary. Satan takes it through the sly door.

    In fact your name used – Ubi Dubium says it all “where there is doubt there is freedom”. Doubt is a believe. Make no mistake I tell you the truth you do believe, you choose not to believe Jesus.

    I have said my peace now that I have shared the truth – the choice is yours.

  • 75. Ubi Dubium  |  February 27, 2012 at 8:19 am

    I notice that you did not say my pass-phrase. Which means that your god is pretend, or maybe that he means for me to think he’s pretend, or for some reason isn’t talking to you. I have no reason to think you are sharing any “truth” here.

    I have a Pirate avatar because I am an ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We work for the separation of church and state, and our weapon is humor. The FSM (pesto be upon Him) wants you to be a Pirate, Pirates are His Chosen People, and in fact the decline in Pirates is the direct cause of global warming! Does this sound ridiculous? No more so than talking snakes, evil fruit, and ritual cannablism. We Pastafarians demand that, if public schools are going to teach “intelligent design” in science class, equal time be given to our theory of “unintelligent design”. Check out the website,

    Doubt is not a “belief”. Any more than “off” is a TV channel, or “bald” is a hair color. I believe things when there is reasonable evidence for me to do so. (I think the charge on an electron is quantized, for example, because I tested it myself in a lab.) There is insufficient evidence for the existence of gods, demons or any other such being.

    Surrounding oneself with symbols or idols has no “magical” effects. Crosses, statues of Buddha, rosaries, special weeping pictures, pentagrams, magic underwear, they are all the same. They have no power over you unless you give it to them yourself.

  • 76. cag  |  February 27, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    Anon #73, “Word of God” – which word would that be? Which god would that be? Would it be the god that demands that disobedient children be stoned to death? The god that commands slaughter of whole populations except for virgin females? The god that sends bears to maul children?

    Your god is not a god of love, but a god of stones. Stone them!
    Your god is not a god of love, but a god of malaria. Bite them!
    Your god is not a god of love, but a god of broken bodies. Amputate them!
    Your god is not a god of love, but a god of viruses. Infect them!
    Your god is not!

    If Jesus wants me, an omniscient being should be able to find me. An omnibenevolent being should want to save me. An omnipotent being should be able to convince me. I remain unconvinced. How could I “meat” Jesus? Jesus is no more real than Betty Crocker.

    Your imaginary, omnipotent god can’t even defeat that other imaginary being, Satan. Strawman vs. strawman.

    You pray, I do not pray. How has my life been diminished by not praying? Is it because I do not give my money to scammers that diminishes my ability to get my daily bread? Is it because I do not worry about my “soul”? Is it because I can sleep in on Sunday? Please explain.

    While you are explaining things to me, please explain why fallible humans have to do all the work for an omnipotent god? Is it because the god is lazy, or is it because the god doesn’t exist?

  • 77. T.O.T3n1  |  February 27, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    To every Christian on this site: Yes we must try and help others. We believe and they dont. Its is up to them to want to believe, not us. Dont try and preach about the Bible here. Even myself, a christian, dont believe everything thats in the Bible. How could we? It was written by man. The Bible is a guide on how we should live our lives (moral values). I truly believe in God and Jesus but we cannot change people and their beliefs if they do not want to. Its not by our will but by His. If He wants these people then He will come for them. Im pretty sure these folks here are good people and try and live a good life just like we try. But this is their site, De-Conversion, not or something else. Let them be in peace.

  • 78. Ubi Dubium  |  February 27, 2012 at 6:59 pm

    Thank you, T.O, that was one of the nicest things I’ve heard a Christian say on a de-conversion site. I don’t agree with you on all of it, but the spirit of “don’t preach at the de-converts on their website” is quite welcome.

    Discussions are welcome, at least as far as I am concerned. They help promote understanding. Preaching and bible-thumping never do that. So thanks.

  • 79. T.O.T3n1  |  February 27, 2012 at 7:19 pm

    Its just the way I feel Ubi. Just as we christians are taught, its by His will, not mans. So if He wants you, then He will come for you. Moral values have been around forever, so its not something thats been here for 2000 years. I know you dont agree with me about some of what I wrote but thats just my opinion. Just like you have yours and I must respect your thoughts and opinions too!

  • 80. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 28, 2012 at 1:26 am

    @T.O.T3n1> Yes, as we stand here and allow them to mock our God and associate Him with fairy like descriptions, the moment we put a little bit of pressure to their so called believes and the finger starts entering their heart as the truth starts to touch where it ought to you want to back down — and tell them that you don’t even believe the Bible yourself- “Be delivered from your misconception; all word is God breathed and inspired” Do you not believe that Jesus was around when they wrote the Book.
    I know this “Atheism” stems from Satan and the fact that you are trying to comfort them indicate to me that – he that is called “Satan” who knows me and Jesus and can already feel the warmth of God’s wrath; is starting to rattle – So right know I speak against you “Satan” lose your bind on these Folk.
    Act 26:18 ‘to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

    At the moment their eyes are shut, they only see their perspectives. All I offer them is the truth, this is my responsibility. You see the Word of God says the truth shall set them free almost like in the movie the “Matrix” – choose the red pill an see how deep the rabbit hole goes, choose the blue pill “the story ends you wake up in your bed and believes whatever you want to believe”

  • 81. cag  |  February 28, 2012 at 1:55 am

    Morne #80, your satan is no more believable than your god. We mock because your god is such a ridiculous fictional character, showing love through genocide. Such potential, such a failure.

    Every one of the thousands of gods had believers. Belief means nothing. No evidence = no god.

  • 82. T.O.T3n1  |  February 28, 2012 at 2:49 am

    @Morne: Jesus was not around when they wrote the New Testament. As for the Old, maybe it was here. But it was written by man for man. The Bible is telling us a way to live our lives (moral values) and I try and do such. I would live my life good even if I didnt believe on God. Like I said before, this is a site for Non-Believers. They have their own thoughts and opinions and we must respect them too. I know some say things about God but thats why this is a free country with the right to their own voice. Im sorry, but if you do not like hearing it, then maybe you should not enter this site. I enter it because I like the conversation we are having about our universe. I could care less about the religious part (Thats why I go to mass) If we are true Christians then we must love them the same, regardless if the dont believe. Its in the Bible!

  • 83. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 28, 2012 at 3:58 am

    @T.O.T3n1 Sorry buddy, my aim is not to lash out at you it is more a hate relationship to the satanic influences. Jesus was there from the beginning.

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    So just that you know if all things hold together in him – you better believe He has a Hand in everything. Even in the human construction of the Word of God.

    What does bother me is people that partly believe – they only want to believe the love and sweetness parts of the Bible. the rest not so good stuff must be human mishap! – that’s not me. I believe all although I do agree Love is the most important aspect.

  • 84. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 28, 2012 at 4:08 am

    @cag – sorry, I know, I know it was a couple of hard things you had to hear. But be warned now that you have heard the truth, there is a accountability. Say you are wrong and I am right hypothetically as you would assume- now there is no excuse for you so if I was you I’d better make sure I’m dead certain or death could hold quite the surprise in for you.

  • 85. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 28, 2012 at 6:47 am

    @cag – I don’t want to scare you into heaven, God may award you grace. How much is a gamble – I would not be prepared to make. Hear my heart I’d rather see you saved that’s all, lets stop this foolish talk and try it what have you got to loose.

  • 86. Ubi Dubium  |  February 28, 2012 at 7:59 am

    Morne, you still have not given my pass-phrase. You are a clanging gong to me, a crashing cymbal. You have given me no better reason to believe anything you say than any preacher from any other religion. Your sincerity is not convincing, because all the others are just as sincere. Time to put up or shut up. If your god won’t give you that phrase, then go away and leave us alone.

    Ironic that you should use the Matrix as a metaphor, because ex-christians use that all the time. Doubt and questionning are the red pill. You can take the blue pill and stay in your cozy little world of fiction, where the all-powerful creator of the world made our vast universe just for your benefit, where you can be forgiven for wrongdoing by apologizing to your invisible friend instead of actually taking personal responsibility for what you do, where a magic man in the sky is going to give you and your buddies a special magic happily-ever-after while everybody else suffers. You can keep going every week to your services, downing more and more blue pills, where you and the other sheep reinforce your myths by bleating to each other about how true it all is, and how asking questions is eeeevil. “We believe, we believe, we believe!” It feels great, warm and safe and protected. Most people are raised within this world, they live immersed in it, and they don’t even see the absurdity of it because they’ve lived their whole lives there.

    “Taking the red pill” means seeing through all the illusion and deciding to find out what’s actually real, even if it isn’t warm and comforting. Following the truth to where it actually leads you, instead of where you want it to lead you is pretty scary. Down our rabbit hole you find that the universe does not revolve around you, that there is no cosmic justice, there’s no afterlife, and nobody has “divine plan” for your life. What we have is this planet and each other. There’s only us, free to create community and meaning for ourselves. And I woudn’t have it any other way.

  • 87. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 28, 2012 at 8:50 am

    @Ubi, come on be original – I had that one first – but like you Atheists to twist everything – you see that tree growing in your front yard the one you referred to growing bibles – go read Mar 11:13-14 and then Mark 11:20-23. That one you can’t deny. I speak it, believe it and don’t doubt it.

  • 88. Ubi Dubium  |  February 28, 2012 at 9:16 am

    Pish tosh. We’ve been using that analogy for years. You weren’t the first one to come up with it, not by a long shot. (Like here:, or There’s a huge atheist blogosphere on the internet you know, this is just one teeny-tiny corner of it.

    I have no reason to go read your old book again. (I’ve read it twice, cover-to-cover and I’m unimpressed.) There are lots of competing books out there, and I have no reason to think that your book is anything special. It’s just an old book.

    Go read the Loose Canon, especially Piraticus 13:7 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was Arrrgh!” You can’t deny that, it’s written in my Holy Book!

  • 89. T.O.T3n1  |  February 28, 2012 at 11:16 am

    @Morne: I dont partially believe. And ill explain why. Ive stood in Gods presence as well as His son Jesus. Ive also been in the Blessed Mothers presence. But ive also seen the devil and his little minions. Ive seen Heaven and Hell. So for me to believe in some of what the Bible says and not to believe does not matter. I know what awaits us after death. You can choose to believe me or not, I can care less. Im just saying what I know.

  • 90. cag  |  February 28, 2012 at 2:34 pm

    Morne, your bible is totally unconvincing. The chronology in genesis demonstrates to anyone not god besotted that the bible is not just fiction, but a deliberate, calculated lie. The original authors came up with the story so that they could say “we know” to the credulous masses.
    I repeat that if an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent god can’t be bothered to recruit me itself, I will not take seriously the words of a lackey. Your god is an embarrassment to anyone with a sense of decency. Mass killings, creation of deadly viruses, stonings, slavery, misogyny, mental illness – all fixable by an omnipotent, loving being. Nothing. What a useless, piss poor, uncaring, cruel, sadistic being your god is. Thankfully your god does not exist. How much blasphemy must I utter in order for your null to smite me? Not even a power failure!

    sorry, I know, I know it was a couple of hard things you had to hear. But be warned now that you have heard the truth, there is a accountability

    It appears that you are so deluded by the history of lies that have been passed down in your family that you are convinced that the lies you spout are, in fact, truth. What you have said is nowhere near the truth, it is just superstitious nonsense, good for a laugh but nothing more.

    There seems to be one passage in your fantasy journal that you must have missed, Matthew 10:14. We do not need lessons in ignorance.

  • 91. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 1:48 am

    @cag, you must admit I bring the best out of you I will honour your request in Matthew 10:14 and leave you with this.
    Joh 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

  • 92. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 1:52 am

    @Ubi Dubium Before you opt out as Cag did. Does this not seem more interesting than living day to day just because.

    Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    Just like when you cut a rose off it will still bloom but eventually it will wither and die. I give that tree about 10 to 15 days as the roots are already dried up.

  • 93. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 2:20 am

    @T.O.T3n1 – I was going to say something, but am refraining from it, instead I will pray for you. It is clear that your knowledge of the bible is lacking.

    Hos 4:6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

    I am going to leave it at that.

  • 94. cag  |  February 29, 2012 at 2:47 am

    Morne, perhaps I wasn’t clear. The Matt 10:14 was for you. I do not follow the bible.
    I’m looking forward to having some shrimp and bacon, possibly some scallops. I will be quite comfortable in my poly-cotton outfit. Think I’ll do some work in the garden this Sunday, as the slaves all have put in their 6 years. Then I’ll go and feed the multitudes with 5 loaves (Mark 6:38) er, uhm, ah 7 loaves (Matt 15:34) of bread and 2 fish (Mark 6:38) er, uhm, ah a few small fish (Matt 15:34).
    My pile of stones is being rapidly depleted, so some effort will have to be put into replenishment. Maybe some used stones. Have to arrange for some bears to interview those kids on the lawn. Then off to the u-pick for some of that delectable fruit that some squamata told me about. Not looking forward to the rib surgery, but help is hard to find. It will be a little messy, but someone has to bash the little ones against the rocks (Psalm 137:9).

    Morne, in case it is not plain, we are laughing at you, not with you. We do not buy gods in a poke. We prefer our joke books to be funny, not vile. We find reality convincing, smarmy words from some oleaginous preacher just make us stronger in our appreciation of knowledge

    Gods – none have passed the smell test. Granted, some people plug their noses – we call them delusional.

  • 95. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 5:51 am

    @cag – Jesus fed the crowd twice first the Jews then later the Gentiles – very long explanation but see this as quick reference:

    Mat 14:17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.

    Mat 15:34 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked. “Seven,” they replied, “and a few small fish.”

    Mar 6:38 “How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.” When they found out, they said, “Five—and two fish.”

    Mar 8:5 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked. “Seven,” they replied.

    Common mistake to mismatch them if you like I can give a more detailed sermon on this?

  • 96. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 6:28 am

  • 97. Ubi Dubium  |  February 29, 2012 at 7:44 am

    You like Scripture quotes? Here’s some from my Scripture.

    ProvHerbs 5:2: An apple a day keeps the scurvy away.

    2 Edd 1:13 Without proof, reasonable doubt must prevail.

    Pastalms 13:1-2 He is like a sweater that enfolds me in Ragu with meatballs.

    And I sure you’d just love to hear a lenghty detailed sermon delivered on any of these verses. Or I could give you llong quotes from the Book of Revealed Crapola or the Sermon on the Mall, because they are totally relevant to your life, and if you don’t believe every single word of them you will be condemned to an eternity of stale beer.

    (I hope this sounds ridiculous to you. This is what you sound like to us when you start thumping your book.)

  • 98. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 8:07 am

    I hear you Ubi – maybe that’s the issue here because it is hidden from you you cannot understand it.

    One question: honestly where did the world come from then in your eyes?

  • 99. Ubi Dubium  |  February 29, 2012 at 8:39 am

    Morne, maybe it’s hidden because your all-knowing all-powerful god is a lousy communicator. (Or, more likely, fictional.)

    Where did the world come from? That’s a big question, I’ll narrow it down to where this planet came from. Short answer: natural forces.

    Longer answer: New stars form out of swirling clouds of gas and dust that include the leftovers of the explosive deaths of earlier stars. Planetary systems are the byproducts of stellar formation. With modern telescopes and other instruments we can look at the universe and see exploding stars, gas clouds, stellar nurseries where stars are just forming, young stars that still have a disc of gas and dust around them where planets are coalescing, and we have now detected hundreds of planets around other stars. (Extra-solar planetary detection is brand-new, so we have only found a tiny tiny percentage so far of the planets actually out there.)

    Or how about “In the beginning the Flying Spaghetti Monster created a mountain, some trees and a midgit.” (Open Letter 1:38 paraphrased) Better? Nah, I’ll stick with actual evidence, thanks.

  • 100. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    OK that’s a start.

    Question one where does all the gasses and matter come from?

    Question two how did life then start from this gas and matter stuff?

  • 101. cag  |  February 29, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    Morne #100, I am perfectly OK with “we’re working on it”. I’m also OK with “we may never know”. What I’m not OK with is picking from these, for they are all wrong. Your religion’s creation myth does not deserve any more credence than any of the others. Your religion does not merit any more belief than any of the others.

    Where did god come from? Zeus? Thor? Ra?????

  • 102. Ubi Dubium  |  February 29, 2012 at 2:05 pm


    I just went over all that recently on another thread. So instead of retyping all of that, I’ll just point you to what I said at comment #344 on this thread:

    And before you get started on it, i want to warn you against arguing “god of the gaps” as evidence for your religion.

    First, “we don’t know everything yet” does NOT equal “a magic invisible man in the sky did it” it especially does NOT equal ‘a mideastern Bronze-Age war god made it all just for me”

    And second, “god of the gaps” is not a strong basis for faith, anyway. Every time we discover something new, the gaps in our knowledge get smaller. If your god is based on “what fills the gaps” then every time we discover something new, your god gets smaller. Probably not what you want.

    “God of the gaps” arguments are used in apologetics to reassure people who already believe of how right they are. They are no good for convincing a non-believer. (Actually, all of apologetics is like that.)

    The discoveries of science that religion fights against the hardest are those that show we are not the center of the universe. Galileo was threatened with torture by the Catholic Church when he suggested that the solar system was not geocentric. And now the creationists howl against evolution, because it shows that we are just another kind of animal, and not some special creation. Nothing is more threatening to a True Believer than being knocked off their pedestal of having everything revolve around them personally.

    Humans are just one species of life, on one middling planet, orbiting an average star, in an average galaxy, among billions of other similar galaxies out there. The scale of the universe is enormous and mind-boggling and breathtaking and wonderful. We aren’t special. But since we are self-aware, we get to try to understand and enjoy being part of this wonderful universe while we are here. I don’t need or want any belief in human-invented supernatural beings clogging up my brain. Reality is awesome enough.

  • 103. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 2:09 pm

    @cag, you took the 5th, but if you still wish lets reason this one out step for step before jumping to religion or so called mythical creatures that you refer to. Please I do not want to insult your intelligence and it may seem arbitrary, but lets take it from the beginning of where all life and stuff etc… comes from.

  • 104. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    I hear you Ubi, but how can life come from none living matter or what did this life form feed from?. As Nature indicate that there is a circle of life then surely one living organism must lived off of another? which to me indicate that more than one living organism had to be created simultaneously.

  • 105. Anonymous - Morne  |  February 29, 2012 at 3:03 pm

  • 106. Ubi Dubium  |  February 29, 2012 at 9:01 pm

    No, not watching preachy YouTube videos. I’ve sat through entirely too many sermons in my life, I’m not going to waste my time on more of them. Not until somebody shows up with my pass-phrase, as evidence they aren’t just spouting fairy tales.

    There are certainly life forms that do not feed off others. Like many plants. The ocean is full of diatoms feed off water, sunshine, and dissolved gases and trace elements in the water. There are even colonies of bacteria in the deep ocean that get their energy from hydrogen sulfide spewing from volcanic vents.

    Modern life forms would not just “pop” into existence in all their complexity. (That’s nonsense, and anybody who starts talking about why doesn’t life evolve in a jar of peanut butter is just making himself look embarassingly ignorant.) The study of the origins of life is called “abiogenesis” and is a fairly new field. It’s tricky, because simple molecules and proto-cells do not fossilize. But the research in this area is fascinating.

    The first thing that would have started the world on the path to life would not be anything you would recognize as an organism, but was probably a self-replicating molecule. The early earth had an ocean full of interesting chemistry going on, plus sunshine, lightning, tides, volcanoes, freezing and thawing, and all sorts of things that cause chemicals to react with each other to form new chemicals. (We know that the chemicals needed for life would have been present, because we can make them in simple lab experiments, we find them in comets, we see their spectra in nebulas in space.)

    With all the jillions of new chemicals forming in these reactions, all it took was for one molecule to form that could copy itself using the chemicals around it. From there, Natural Selection can take over. Any molecule that is good at replicating does that, and makes tons of copies of itself. Any one of those copies that is slightly better at replicating leaves more copies than the others. Pretty soon, the ocean is full of this stuff, and any time a new variation of the molecule appears that is slightly better at leaving copies of itself appears, perhaps one that is even able to take chemicals from the others, it will have the advantage. At some point, this process builds up to something that we would call “life”.

    Life may not be a miracle, it may be practically inevitable. In our own solar system we have two earth-size planets. One of them has a runaway greenhouse-effect, and a surface temperature hot enough to melt lead. The other is completely covered in life, and has been for at least 3-1/2 billion out of it’s 4-1/2 billion year existence (although most of that time, it was just cyanobacteria, not multicellular life). So 50% of the candidate worlds in our system have life. (100% of the worlds that we know of with liquid oceans on the surface have life, but our sample size is only “one”, so that’s not much to go on.) If that ratio holds, the universe is probably teeming with life forms. There may once have been life on Mars, since our explorations have found that it once had liquid surface water. Europa and Titan are also candidates for possible life, but exploring them is slow, and any life present there may be so different from our own that it may be hard to identify at first.

    “Not having every answer yet” does not mean that there must be a god behind it, let alone the war god of a bunch of mid-eastern goatherders.

    I’m still waiting for my pass-phrase, Morne. God not feel like talking to you today?

  • 107. cag  |  March 1, 2012 at 12:04 am

    Morne, what makes your religions creation myth any less ridiculous than any other? We go with the evidence, not the delusion. Two hundred years ago the evidence for evolution was basically non existent. Two hundred years from now knowledge will have increased to the point that your god will have to nudge out Zeus for a place to hide. I am not a biologist, I also don’t do brain surgery, but I do know that of the thousands of gods that humans have invented, none are real.

    I accept that my not knowing is no reason to invent some superstitious event that is a non explanation. The answer to the question “what is the most illogical idea ever” is “gods”. I have challenged your vile, miserable, weak, morally challenged piss ant of a god to smite me. It’s been years now and nothing. I’ve challenged your pusillanimous, timorous, coward hiding in the shadows, non existent god to recruit me personally. Guess the omniimpotent nothing who has human minions do all the heavy work, but craves recognition, is too shy to show its face. Amazing isn’t it that your god (the one with the inferiority complex) who craves attention would not bother to convince atheists to worship it, but will kiss up to bootlickers like you who are already on you knees.

    How many christians were (and still are) killed because they are christians by believers in other gods? How many non christians have been killed by christians because they believed in gods other than the christian god? If you were born 2000 years ago you would have believed in some pantheistic religion, probably even more fervently than you believe in your current delusion.

  • 108. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 1, 2012 at 1:26 am

    @cag: You keep pointing to religious martyr. So you say that there is a right and wrong. If you are only molecules that by chance came together why bother yourself about right and wrong and with what goes on around you?

    In fact the fact that these things move you is surprising, cause is feelings actually real then? Is feelings not merely a figment of your imagination?

    I mean honestly, why not kill half the worlds population as this earth is not made to handle so many people, or will that lay heavy on you conscience if there is such a thing in your world?

    A single-celled animal contains enough genetic information to fill 20,000 volumes of an encyclopaedia and this just happened by accident a soup thing.

    What proof do you have that atheism is the right believe? if you are so sure I am wrong?

  • 109. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 1, 2012 at 1:43 am

    @Ubi, hows that tree coming along. I understand that you have done some serious looking into creation – let’s call it that, whether my way or your way it started somewhere.

    “Quantum physics and concepts of infinity teaches one that the more you know the more you know how little you know” One of the theories around quantum physics is that the universe may be a miracle taught by lecturers at universities.

    Is this a plausible calculated statement like the soup thing y? Could it be that maybe you missed or chose not to hear that theory. Ha maybe the scientist are on to something here. I believe you also believe on face value – you just choose to believe other men’s religious views on evolution.

    I would like us to get off this creation evolution thing as I believe we can run around in circles for eternity – if there is such a thing in your world? and move unto the next subject – Why Christianity over all the other believes in the world.

  • 110. cag  |  March 1, 2012 at 2:35 am

    Morne, who is the unfeeling one? I want justice now, not in some promised fairy land. Cure the sick, heal the wounded, fix the mentally ill. That should be just a snap of the finger for an omnipotent entity. Why is it that god besotted individuals think that morality comes from outside? Is it moral to stone disobedient children to death? Don’t ever think that your morals are superior to non believers. We do things because they are right, not because they are mandated. We do not kill Doctors. We do not have inquisitions. We have a well developed sense of right and wrong, no holy lies needed.

    The authors of the bible believed that what they could see was the extent of the universe, and felt that it was all for them. We now know much more about the universe and the idea that it is all for us is absurd. The universe is not finely tuned for us, it is a deadly place with a few oases. A god would know this, while a bronze age scribe would not. The bible contains the wisdom of the scribe, not the god that you believe in.

    We reject your christianity as having no basis in reality. It is based on ignorance, not divine knowledge. We reject your god as we reject more than 2800 other gods. We look at how these other gods were defended, sometimes to the death, and conclude that belief in gods does not make them real, but it does make them dangerous as the believers live out their delusions. Your christianity is insane.

  • 111. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 1, 2012 at 3:13 am

    @cag, So you say that there is flaws then in your molecular design. If one is to say that cell gives live to cell how come do viruses which is a cell attack other cells. How come after all this so called billions of years must the ordinary human body still fight the common flu, and Yet many people die each year of the common flu – and not some religious martyr act.

    Your scientist fight the whole time to bring out medicines to cure ailment. caused by the frail body. Your science is failing you. That’s probably why everybody does not look exactly the same no where in the world, yet you suggests that cells reproduce themselves, why differently every time, yet if you look at cells design compared to another human being is exactly the same on molecular look and feel, but the person looked different and is different.

    Would there have had to be two persons to have created such diversities, if so it is contrary to your theory that we evolved, cause if we had then there must have only been one master copy.

    That’s why the bible is more accurate than your Scientist’s as it described two human beings being created. More plausible for the rich diversities we have now than a single cell.

    Think about it.

  • 112. Ubi Dubium  |  March 1, 2012 at 8:30 am

    Morne, you really need to take a science class or two, if you are going to try to talk about such things.

    Viruses have been evolving for the same amount of time as everything else. They are extraordinarily good at attacking their hosts because they have had lots of time to become that way. Modern medicine has only been fighting viruses for a couple of hundred years. They have a huge head-start on us.

    The problem with fighting the flu, among other diseases, is that flu strains evolve into new strains very quickly. Their generations are fast, and that lets evolution go into overdrive. A vaccine that is effective against one strain won’t be effective against another. Domestic animals also carry their own strains of flu, and mutations often let those cross over into the humans near them. Hence swine flu, bird flu, etc.

    Science isn’t failing. We have wiped out Smallpox! We have alsmost wiped out Polio! No amount of praying has ever managed to wipe out a disease.

    Somebody has been feeding you the rubbish about “one master copy.” It’s nonsense, and if you understood anything about biology you’d see that. The only thing that there was ever “one” of was that first self-replicating molecule. After that, it was all about the competition to survive and leave more descendants.

    Evolution is something that happens to populations of reproducing organisms in response to changing environments over time, not to single organisms.

    I don’t “believe” in evolution because somebody told me I should. I’ve looked at the overwhelming amounts of evidence and I think it’s the correct answer. Should we suddenly find a fossil deposit of pre-cambrian bunnies, then we’ll have to re-think everything. But I’m not holding my breath, just like I’m not holding my breath that your god will tell you my pass-phrase.

    How many of those Quantum Physics lectures at universities have you been to? I’ve been to quite a few, comes with majoring in physics. Hint – if someone is talking about quantum physics, but not mentioning any math, they probably don’t know what they are talking about and are best ignored. “Quantum” is a word that gurus like Chopra like to throw around so that they sound deep, but they really have no idea what they are talking about.

  • 113. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 1, 2012 at 8:46 am

    So you agree then that there must have been minimum two people in the beginning of the human race?

    I only highlighted a theory that exists under Quantum Physics – do you deny that there is a miracle theory?

  • 114. cag  |  March 1, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    Morne, according to your bible your reprehensible, amoral, disgusting, repugnant, sleazy worthless deity made all living things. What was the point of creating viruses?
    You argue that people look different therefore god. Do you not realize that we look different because there are changes occurring in humans and we may, if we should survive as a species, look quite different in a million years – evolution at work. Evolution is a gradual change, not necessarily radical change. When viruses mutate, they do not all mutate. Those that do not mutate die out because the host has developed immunity. The host has no immediate defence against the mutated virus, so it thrives until the host develops immunity. These new viruses have a few copies that differ from the majority, thus repeating the cycle.

    Your failed book of myths states that “God created man in his own image”. So throwing your own words back at you, “rich diversity”, why are humans not all alike? Evolution predicts change, “in his own image” requires conformity.

    Evolution is not the only thing you do not understand. The bible breeds not only ignorance, but primitive ignorance. Try reading something other than fiction.

  • 115. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 2, 2012 at 3:11 am

    @cag – Most atheist is mathematical, they work out the odds of things and therefore make their calculation accordingly and weigh up the probabilities and therefore make conclusions and calculated decision.

    Question 1: What is the probability that man and woman evolved together next to each other? Russia alone 17075200 km2 – just to have evolved next to each other in russia within a 1 Km radius is the odds is 0.00000000585644677661169% that’s not counting all the countries.

    Question 2: On this big earth what was the probability that they evolved close enough to each other to have bumped into each other by chance? Remembering the diameter of Earth is 12756 km if they were more than 50km from each other they probably would not bump into each other. There is a 0.0039% chance if they happened to evolve on the same latitude.

    Question 3: Remembering that you refer to Millions and Millions of years what would the odds be for it to happen within the same 100year life span? Say according to thumb suck the earth is 50 000 000 years old and a life span according to thumb suck say 100 years. There is a 0.000002% chance of this happening.

    question4: If many men and woman around the world can’t have babies because of medical reasons what would the odds be that the first two humans got it right the first time? Fertility problems affect one in seven couples in the UK alone. 15% chance that the first two people were not fertile.

    Question 5: There are countless women that die during their first child’s birth what if the child was a boy – then I suppose I would not be writing this? Sierra Leone has the highest maternal death rate at 2,000per 100000 natural births – this is related to health care which the first two people could not have had.

    Question 6: Now let’s throw this all in the mix – my maths is letting me down or my calculator does not allow for that many zeros.
    The odds are astoundingly against an evolution theory if one just does a mathematical probability calculation – In all probability I should not be writing this.

    But, if God had a hand in it according to the bible he created man and then created in the same place woman for man. So immediately question 1, 2, 3 is not relevant. So the odds of man now able to procreate is 75% fertile; 98% no childbirth fatality; so around 70to 75% chance of procreating, much more likely

    Think about it

  • 116. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 2, 2012 at 3:22 am

    picking up from above : Let’s put this into perspective you are probably more likely to win the UK Lotto 5 times in a row.

    So once you stop mocking the bible and refer to it as a fairytale – which seems more probable than the evolution theory which seems more of a fairytale to me, let’s look at why Jesus.

  • 117. Ubi Dubium  |  March 2, 2012 at 7:31 am

    Morne, your “maths” are failing you completely.

    What part of “evolution is something that happens to populations changing over time” are you not getting? There’s no magic “first two people” Men and women didn’t just magically pop in separately in different places – that’s a religious idea you are trying to shove into science, and it doesn’t belong there. Notice how there’s male and female fish, male and female amphibians, male and female reptiles, male and female mammals. The odds of “finding each other” were 100%, because early proto-humans were living and breeding in groups.

    Your argument is what’s called a strawman argument. You pick a ridiculous idea that your opponent is NOT claiming, claim that they do support it, show it’s ridiculous and then claim victory. You cannot disprove evolution by making stupid stuff up, showing that the stuff you made up doesn’t work, then saying you won. That’s why scientists laugh so hard at Kirk Cameron and his crocoduck. He thinks he’s being ingenious, but he’s just attacking a strawman.

    If you want to argue against evolution effectively, you won’t be able to do that unless you understand it at least a little. And you’ll never understand it if you listen to Ray Comfort and his ilk, because they are deliberately feeding you tripe to keep you confused. To learn what evolution actually says, you need to listen to biologists, not preachers, not the Creation Museum, and not the Discovery Institute. Their goal is to keep you from understanding it.

  • 118. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 2, 2012 at 8:08 am

    @ubi – well correct me then was the first man then “male and female”

    “because early proto-humans were living and breeding in groups” groups suggests that they just popped up, is this true. Groups is too far down the line I want to jump to the very first human ape thing y. I cannot go through your in one day so help me understand then as you have had a life time of investigating this, I have had a life time of investigating the Bible truths, maybe we can save ourselves a lifetime and try to reason it out by combining info.

    I have a fair idea of evolution the same way you have a fair idea of the bible – lets see if we can build up constructive comparisons.

  • 119. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 2, 2012 at 8:40 am

    @Ubi – Hominoidea who where they? and how did they get here? and was that male female? or separate sexes? and what led to them?. If you ask me scientist looked at what closely resembled humans and tried to add wool over our eyes by creating another race on top to clarify their believes or proof their theories. what is above Hominoidea if evolution took place their had to be some more layers I suppose. It looks like Sceintists also uses a Adam and Eve they call them Hominoidea, cause I see nothing above them in documents.

  • 120. Ubi Dubium  |  March 2, 2012 at 10:31 am

    Now you are asking better questions!

    If you plug “hominoidea” into Wikipedia, it will redirect you to “Apes”. Because that’s exactly what it means. It’s a generic umbrella term to describe all of the modern and extinct apes.

    Just the way we would classify lions, tigers, lynxes, housecats, and all similar animals as “felines”. They all share certain anatomical similarities, such as the structure of the skull and teeth. And when we find the fossil skeleton of a sabre-tooth cat, even though those are no longer around, we can examine it’s physical features and confidently say it was also a feline. All these creatures are close cousins on the great family tree of life. The last common ancestor (and by ancestor, I don’t mean a single creature, but a population of interbreeding creatures) of all the modern cats probably lived 6 to 10 million years ago.

    All of the different kinds of creatures we would classify as “hominoids” also share certain anatomical similarities. Among those similarities are opposable thumbs, fingernails instead of claws, forward facing eyes, fairly large brains, and no tail. The species that fit into this description include gibbons and siamangs, orangs, both species of gorillas and all three species of chimps (chimpanzees, bonobos and humans). All of these creatures are also cousins on the family tree of life. The last common ancestor of these creatures probably lived 12 to 15 million years ago. When we find a fossil of a creature that shares these traits, even if that creature is now extinct, we can confidently say that it was a hominoid. Then the challenge is to work out where it fits in our family tree. Did we find something that was an ancestor of one or more things alive today? Or was that creature on a side branch that has died out and left no descendants?

    Sorry, no “Adam and Eve” here. Just lots and lots of creatures living and reproducing, competing to survive, and changing over time. New branches of the family tree split from older ones, and sometimes the older ones die out. Eventually, after 3-1/2 billion years of this, humans were one of the many things that natural selection has produced.

  • 121. Ubi Dubium  |  March 2, 2012 at 10:55 am

    Oh, and as to my understanding of the bible, I’ve read it cover-to-cover in two different translations. I spent too much time in my younger years in “bible study” classes that actually weren’t studying it at all. They just would read a short passage and discuss for an hour what it was supposed to mean to us. Nothing about who actually wrote the different books in it, or when, or under what circumstances, or how the final selection of which books to include was made. Nothing about editing, or copying errors, or what manuscripts we use as source material or translation decisions. Since leaving religion, I’ve actually learned much more about your book, and how we got it. I’ve also read some of the books that were candidates for inclusion in the bible but were ultimately excluded. All of that is much more interesting than typical “bible study”.

  • 122. cag  |  March 2, 2012 at 1:47 pm

    Ubi, thanks for answering stupidity with intelligence.

    Can I play the pass-phrase game? Guess I’ll play without permission. My Dog barked this out:

    Morne and burt10, posterclowns for ignorance, deluded into paying protection money to the agents of an imaginary friend to protect an imaginary soul, possibly two clowns in one, postulating that their pal is everywhere thus the pain in my rectum, as well as my brain when reading the piffle that they spew in their efforts to recreate the dark ages, attempt to denigrate the same science that makes the computer that they use to proclaim the superiority of their fictional tome while assembling a pile of stones for “population control” and not noticing that their gods agent is keeping 100% as commission.

    Close enough? Or do I have to run-on more? I’m going to have to teach my Dog sarcasm, He is much too serious.

  • 123. Ubi Dubium  |  March 2, 2012 at 2:29 pm

    Fun try. Mine’s much nerdier. But that could be YOUR pass-phrase, except that now you’ve typed it (Dang!). Now you’ll have to come up with a different one. Maybe that’s somebody else’s passphrase, and your dog is the True Prophet of some god or other.

  • 124. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 5, 2012 at 3:08 am

    @Ubi, humans possess 46 Chromosomes. Chimpanzees, on the other hand, have 48 chromosomes. A strict comparison of chromosome numbers would indicate that we are more closely related to the Chinese muntjac (a small deer found in Taiwan’s mountainous regions), which also has 46 chromosomes.

    Considering that each chromosome carries a number of genes, losing chromosomes does not make sense physiologically, and probably would prove deadly for new species. No respectable biologist would suggest that by removing one (or more) chromosomes, a new species likely would be produced. To remove even one chromosome would potentially remove the DNA codes for millions of vital body factors. Eldon Gardner summed it up as follows: “Chromosome number is probably more constant, however, than any other single morphological characteristic that is available for species identification” (1968, p. 211). To put it another way, humans always have had 46 chromosomes, whereas chimps always have had 48.

    @cag; funny you should use your dog analogy In fact according to scientists you share more gene similarities to the common house dogs and you know hat they say about dogs and their owners looking alike, does your little doggie look like yooouuu.

    Homology (or similarity) does not prove common ancestry. The entire genome of the tiny nematode (Caenorhabditis elegans) also has been sequenced as a tangential study to the human genome project. Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75% have matches in the worm (see “A Tiny Worm Challenges Evolution”). Does this mean that we are 75% identical to a nematode worm? Just because living creatures share some genes with humans does not mean there is a linear ancestry. Biologist John Randall admitted this when he wrote:

    Chimp 98% – Worm 75%

    Are you from the ape’s side or the worm?

    @Ubi – I also went to bible classes and knew of God and Jesus, Only later in my life did I experience Him as real when I called on His name, repented and excepted him as King and Lord

  • 125. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 5, 2012 at 3:30 am

    Theoretical a worm has 75% of your brain – You see the problems are all the stuff that you guys are talking about is theories that you have factualized if there is such a word. I know my Jesus, He has changed my life and I am a 100% witness to this.

  • 126. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 5, 2012 at 4:25 am

    All I know is that a worm definitely does not look 75% like me nor has 75% of my brain capacity. Do you see how warped scientist comparison theories are?

    My main issue is that all atheists believe blindly and there is no real evidence, they are all based on hypothetical theories. Easy to believe if you make an comparison to an ape or chimp etc, but not so easy to believe when they make comparisons to a worm, you catch my drift.

    I believe that it is a rebellion spirit and this will explain why you would defend your hypothetical theories.

    Life started from no life, Ha what hogwash they sold you. Oh I forgot the magic ingredient millions and millions of years of hogwash.

  • 127. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 5, 2012 at 5:28 am

    The more I read up on it the more I realize thank God I was saved from believing this nonsense.

  • 128. Ubi Dubium  |  March 5, 2012 at 9:03 am

    Morne, now you’ve stepped in it again. You are talking about science when you don’t understand it, and that’s going to backfire every time.

    Chromosomes are not the fixed and static things you seem to think they are. Humans have 23 pairs of matching chromosomes. The other chimps have 24. Our common ancestor with chimps would probably have had either 23 or 24 pairs. The current consensus is that it was 24. How do we know? because we have found EVIDENCE of what happened to the extra chromosome. Of course it didn’t just go missing, that would be ridiculous and fatal. What we see is that the human chromosome 2 has all of the genes that are present in two separate (and smaller) chimp chromosomes. So what we are looking at is a chromosome that is made from two chromosomes stuck end-to-end.

    How to confirm this? Well chromosomes have a specific structure, with a “centromere” in the middle that aids in replication, and structures called “telomeres” that mark each end. If our chromosome 2 were a composite of two chromosomes stuck end-to-end, then the prediction is that we should find two “centromeres” along it (one of which no longer functions) and a region somewhere in the middle with the structure of two sets of telomeres stuck together. If our chromosomes had always been 23 pairs, as you claim, then there would be absolutely no reason for this prediction to be correct.

    Guess what? Now that we have decoded our genome and the chimp genome, our prediction was correct. Our chromosome 2 does have an extra (inactive) centromere, a bunch of telomeres in the middle, and a sequence of genes that match two chimp chromosomes stuck together.

    This is an amazing example of EVIDENCE FOR evolution being correct.

    Your stuff about worms is rubbish too. Most genes code for proteins, and since you are mostly made out of the same basic kinds of proteins as a worm, of course you are going to share the genes that code for them.

    Now – where’s my PASS PHRASE?

  • 129. Ubi Dubium  |  March 5, 2012 at 11:40 am

    Morne, you seem to be flailing here. Is this the first time you have ever tried out your apologetics on non-believers? It sounds like it.

    If you want to know about plumbing, ask a plumber. I don’t ask my doctor how to wire my house, and I don’t ask my plumber to answer my legal questions. Don’t ask an evangelist to give you correct information on science, because they won’t. Your preachers are not telling you anything about actual science, because they really don’t want you to know any. They are filling your head with distortions and made-up nonsense to keep you from understanding anything. That way you can stay ignorant and happy and safely under their control. And you can keep giving them your money. Because for some reason the all-powerful creator of the universe needs your money.

    If I said your bible was false because the bible says Goliath was a giant pickle and Daniel was a talking cucumber, you’d laugh, right? You’d say that the bible says no such thing! You’d say my arguments were totally off-base because I didn’t know what I was talking about, right? That’s how you are sounding right now. That’s how Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron and Ken Ham all sound to real scientists. Those preachers are working very hard to keep from talking about what scientists have actually discovered, and instead make up stupid stuff like crocoducks, knock it down and claim victory. It makes believers feel better about what they believe, but it does nothing to persuade non-believers. As you are finding out now.

  • 130. cag  |  March 5, 2012 at 3:23 pm

    Morne, my dog has more hair than I do. He also has a brain, skin, eyes, nose, lips, tongue, teeth, jaw, throat, lungs, heart, kidneys, stomach, liver, pancreas, intestines, legs etc, and is also an omnivore. Through selective breeding there are over 100 different types of dog. More types are being created. All this from their ancestor, the wolf. A great example of evolution in action, accelerated by human intervention. No gods needed.

    Note how the characteristics of my dog are also found in other animals, including the animal at the top of the heap. I would expect a great degree of genetic commonality between these animals, and studies prove this to be true.

    Our ancestors started as single cells and through various genetic flaws, evolution resulted in humans. The fact that we share so many genes with other life forms is one of the reasons that evolution is the answer and gods is the lie. Evolution has no problem with worms having genes in common with humans, it is, in fact, expected.

    Why does a living object created by gods even need genes? Is the form not predestined? Isn’t every body function determined by the gods? Shouldn’t every cell in a god designed body work perfectly?
    Instead we end up with congenital defects and family medical anomalies.

    You are the end product of the ignorant teaching the ignorant. Ignorance is curable. A lot of diseases (presents from a loving god?) are not.

    Thanks Ubi for the intelligent dissection of the ignorance.

  • 131. TJ Eagleton  |  March 5, 2012 at 8:50 pm

    #129, Ubi Dubium:
    “If I said your bible was false because the bible says Goliath was a giant pickle and Daniel was a talking cucumber, you’d laugh, right? You’d say that the bible says no such thing!”

    But that’s true! I saw it on TV. They didn’t just talk either, they sang.

  • 132. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 6, 2012 at 3:05 am

    @Ubi, If I said to you to you that yes the Church has messed up at times and have failed some folk, but that Jesus is real and that Satan is real would you believe me? you probably won’t cause all things are science to you. Now if all things are science and you don’t believe in any of this “Jesus and Satan” stuff, what would you say if I tell you that Jesus loves you and want you as a child of His. What have you got to loose if all this is fable as you say then saying a little prayer will probably be harmless, cause in your mind it does not exist anyway.

    You probably would tell yourself it is pointless and would suggest to yourself that what’s the use I would be wasting my breathe to say this little prayer.

    What if I tell you that the reason why you don’t want to even spare one breathe to try and say this simple prayer is not because of your believes that there is no God. But that it is actually Satan telling you not to. What if I tell you that you may even be afraid, cause what if?

    Seriously, what’s it to you – what could you possibly loose. You say this little prayer and lets see.

    Prayer: “Jesus help me in my unbelief, have mercy on me. Lord I turn from my ways and I ask that You will save me.”

    One sentence how difficult can it be, I trust that as you say it the life of God will enter you and that everything as you know it will change, and all the confusion you are under now will disappear, God will start to work with those hurts and that the love of God will be evident to you.

    Try it, I challenge you – everything in you says no and everything in you says yes.

  • 133. Ubi Dubium  |  March 6, 2012 at 7:59 am

    Morne – PASS-PHRASE! You have not produced it! I’ve had people tell me that what I need is new-age mindfulness so I should spend my time meditating. I’ve had people tell me that all I really need is Lord Krishna in my life and he’ll find me if I take up chanting, and I’ve had people tell me that I really should give Muhammad a chance and try praying to Mecca five times a day just in case. Have you tried any of these, because, after all, what could you possibly lose? (Now you’re trying “Pascal’s Wager” and it also doesn’t work on non-believers. This is really your first time at this, isn’t it?) We have limited time in this world, and I’m not going to waste mine by trying out every religion out there “just in case”. I’d need some reason to think one of them was more true than the others, and so far there isn’t any.

    You are one voice in a chorus right now, and your message does not stand out from theirs. If you are actually in touch with a god, it should be nothing to produce my pass-phrase. Is your god asleep on the job? Is he jerking you around? Or does he (gasp) only exist in your head?

    Remember that you are talking to “ex-christians” at this site. I spent my youth praying all kinds of prayers, including the ones you mention above. You know what answer I got? Silence. No answer. EVER. Did any of the prayers “change my life”, or “make the confusion disappear”? Not in any way. So I put imaginary friends behind me and decided to live in the real world instead. And reality turns out to be more interesting and wonderful than anything your pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die religion ever dreamed up.

    Morne, why do you keep coming here? Are you just trying to score some brownie points with your pretend friend by “preaching to the heathen”? Or are you trying to shore up a flagging faith of your own? You seem so desperate to convince us that you are right. Is it us that you are really trying to convince?

  • 134. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 6, 2012 at 8:45 am


    I have such a living relationship with Jesus that I can’t imagine anybody else not having it, sorry I am actually sincere. This is me leaving this site alone now – God knows I have cried for you. I will keep you guys in my prayers, I believe I have said enough for you guys to find your way. As for the pass-phrase – I normally get those type of things for some reason it seems empty I hope and pray that …, but hey what I did pray for is that tree of yours how is it doing? maybe that can convince you that the Lord is genuine.

    Cheers for now.

  • 135. Ubi Dubium  |  March 6, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    You can’t imagine anybody actually not having it, but here we are! We are living full and worthwhile lives, creating our own meaning for ourselves, instead of waiting to be told what the meaning of our lives should be.

    My tree is sprouting leaves, but no bibles so far! 🙂

    If your god ever gets around to telling you my pass-phrase, feel free to come back and let me know. And think hard about what it means that you are not getting this answer.

    In the meantime, if any preacher says something that you just can’t find yourself agreeing with, remember us. If some bible reading does not make sense to you no matter how the preachers try to interpret it, remember us. We had the courage to ask the hard questions, and no lightning bolts have hit us yet. Ask tough questions and demand good answers. (And don’t get your science information from preachers!)

    Go in peace, and be kind to your fellow humans.

  • 136. cag  |  March 6, 2012 at 4:05 pm

    Morne, stop worrying about going to hell, there is no such place. Many christians accuse us atheists of believing in nothing. This is, of course, a lie. The christian believes in the following nothings – god, satan, angels, heaven, hell, everlasting life and for some, the words of charlatan preachers. We believe in reality, we know that there is nothing for us beyond this life except as memories in the living and perhaps some nutrition to the land. This doesn’t frighten us like an eternity in hell scares christians. We are not prisoners of our mind like the religious. We do not need salvation, we do not need your pity for our minds are free of irrational beliefs in superstition. We do not need you to sell us on lies, we are not buying.

    I never could figure out why christians feel that an omnipotent being who “will provide” cannot do its own recruiting, or smiting or everything else. Could non-existence be a clue?

    I can guarantee that I will not be praying, I will not live eternally, I will not be sent to hell and I will not live in fear of the future. Instead of praying for me, how about learning something for me?

  • 137. Anonymous - Morne  |  March 23, 2012 at 7:04 am

    Hi Ubi

    I stumbled on this phrase and it reminded me of you so my first attempt just because it reminded me of you:

    “una salus victis nullam sperare salutem”

    Let me know if I am right and I know you can probable say no even if I am right, please just be honest.

    English translation:

    “the only safe bet for the vanquished is to expect no safety”

  • 138. ubi dubium  |  March 23, 2012 at 9:11 am

    Nope that’s not even close.

    Morne, I did say that my pass-phrase was a sentence in English. Not Latin. And you probably will never “stumble upon” it, because it’s personal to me, not a sentence I lifted from some other source. If your god were to actually tell you what it was, you would say “That makes no sense!” It only makes sense to me, that’s why I picked it.

    Why isn’t your god giving you a clear answer on this? For an all-knowing all-powerful god, this should be a breeze.

  • 139. cag  |  March 23, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    For an all-knowing all-powerful god, this should be a breeze.

    This is true . But for all known values of god, this would be impossible for the sum of all gods is zero. If every god ever postulated were to bluster to their max it would not create a breeze.

    Morne, your god is not dead, it has the same provenance as every other god, it never existed. It is impossible to go from imaginary to dead without having lived first. Unlike religion, we do not use threats, but reason. Some, like you, are immune to reason. Immunity can be compromised, truth (unlike Truth) will always be true, gods will always be false.

    Read your bible critically, not reverently. It will open your eyes.

  • 140. Jamie  |  May 1, 2012 at 7:14 pm

    It seems that the point Jesus was making is missed here. The point of to bring glory to God, not yourself. Matthew 6:1 is not too far from Matthew 5:13-16. There are plenty of references to public prayer in both the NT and the OT. A list of some NT references is below in case someone is interested. Let’s not make a law or regulation where there is none. Let’s catch the principles left for us to follow.

    • John 11:41-42
    • Acts 20:36
    • I Corinthians 14:15-16
    • Acts 4:24-30
    • Acts 12:1-12

  • 141. cag  |  May 2, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Jamie #140, until you have irrefutable evidence for your jesus, there is no point. The bible is not evidence of anything but the ignorance of ancient middle east imaginations.

  • 142. Jamie  |  May 2, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    What is the basis of irrefutable? Does atheism stand up to the same standard? What irrefutable evidence do you have that the Bible comes from the imaginations from those of the ancient middle east? You claimed to use reason earlier in this discussion. Your response to me did not appear reasoned, just accusatory.

  • 143. cag  |  May 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    Jamie, the first ten words of the bible brand it as a book of fiction. We now know that the earth was not formed before the sun, we know that the sun was not formed before or at the same time as the universe. The authors of the bible did not know this, they thought the earth was much more massive than any other object in the universe. This is why they ascribed 5 days for the creation of the earth and 1 day for the rest of the universe. The bible (Isaiah 11:12) speaks of the 4 corners of the world- i.e. a flat earth. Do you still believe the earth is flat? The bible goes on to claim that the earth was formed (Bishop Ussher calculation from bible) in 4004 bc. This goes against all the knowledge gained in the time since.

    You are the one who is making the claims about jesus. It is up to you to provide the irrefutable evidence, I do not have to prove non-existence of jesus or your god, you have to prove existence. Good luck with that, we’ve been waiting close to 2000 years for evidence, and just as long for the prophesies in Matthew 24 which were to occur in the lifetimes of the gathered (Matthew 24:34).

    You made the positive assertion, prove it.

  • 144. Be True  |  May 3, 2012 at 2:36 am


    Your face one can see in the mirror, but your soul that is not visible one cannot see, Yet we all know it is there. How do you go about proving that you have a soul. That which makes you who you are, is invisible to anyone other than the person himself.

    Your spirit that is part of the triune human being is lying dormant in death waiting to be awakened. This too is not visible same as your soul. By ones choosing to except Jesus as saviour one unlocks the door to the spirit of man and one gets born again in spirit and truth, that which was dead is alive.

    Only then can you see and discern spiritually. Until such time you believe the religions of satanic forces, telling you that evolution is the key. Telling you that this religion and that religion is the key etc. etc.

    The only true key is the quickening of man spirit to God. Denomination rubbish, is created by satan. Jesus is coming for one bride, those that are quickened in the spirit.

    I know that what I now told you I should probably not feed to the pigs, that is forever reasoning. What I am sharing to you is not natural, this is something that you could and can never comprehend unless you are born again.

    As for creation you could never understand it as you view our God as limited to the tiny understanding of a none powered motorboat. It only becomes comprehend-able when you meet this Creator yourself. But hey let me not tell you what you already know, nothing!

    I know already your answer to this is something like, what ever this is not real and you are living in a fairytale land. Is your Spirit real? even though you can’t see it? – So keep on saying that Jesus is not real is like trying to convince someone else that they are without a Soul , because you can’t see it. Just think how ludicrous that is there would be no psychiatrist’s if there was no soul.

    You see Cag, the only way to unlock this understanding is to choose to except Jesus. Then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.

  • 145. Be True  |  May 3, 2012 at 2:39 am

    You see Cag, the only way to unlock this understanding is to choose to except Jesus. Then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.

    Sorry Typo 144 should read:

    You see Cag, the only way to unlock this understanding is to choose to accept Jesus. Then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.

  • 146. ubi dubium  |  May 3, 2012 at 7:35 am

    You see Cag, the only way to unlock this understanding is to choose to except Jesus. Then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.

    Sorry Typo 144 should read:

    You see Cag, the only way to unlock this understanding is to choose to accept Jesus. Then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.

    No! no! You had it right the first time!

    It’s not possible to choose to accept Jesus if you don’t think Jesus exists. I think he was a Palestinian rabbi executed for rabble-rousing a long time ago, whose story was later re-written, mythologized, and conflated with other Roman-era mystery religions. Later that cult was institutionalized and given power by a Roman emperor. There’s nothing there for me to “accept”.

    Can you accept Robin Hood into your heart? Can you give your life over to the Easter Bunny? Or how about Krishna? I’ve had people tell me, just as earnestly as you write, that the true secret is to accept Krishna, and “then and only then will you unlock and quicken your spirit.” BeTrue, what would it take for you to choose whether to accept Krishna into your heart? No amount of preaching and chanting from a Krisha follower would do it, no matter how sincere they were. They’d have to actually show you that Krishna was real before you could make a “choice” and they can’t. And you can’t do it with your religion either. There’s no more evidence for your “Jesus” than for “Krishna”.

    Now I’ll go back to munching my popcorn on the sidelines.

  • 147. Be True  |  May 3, 2012 at 9:01 am

    ubi: How come, you should ask yourself, how come every time that I comment you and cag feel so offensive. Is it, no – no I am sure it is, because there is something true in what I share it is cutting through flesh and soul. There is a realness that you can sense. I am real. I am the real deal. I speak of Jesus cause I know Him!, I don’t claim it I know it! You too can know Him I will show you the way. I am not some believer believing in a aimless cause. I am not your normal Christian
    just getting aggressive and then running with my tale down, Oh no I set alight tails there is nothing more urgent than when you are on fire. I pray my Lord to set you and cag alight. I’m speaking into your spirit right now. Please note there is no distance that the spiritual need to cover – as I am saying it now so it is with you now.

    I am part of the Rock and I prophecy Living waters of Life into your soul. So as for your will to open the doors to Jesus.

  • 148. ubi dubium  |  May 3, 2012 at 9:28 am

    Not “offfensive” (I think you mean offended), just amused.

    You sound like a small child trying to convince me that Santa Claus is real because he really really is real. Santa is real and if you just decide to believe he is real then you will believe he is real and you will have Santa in your soul and you will sense the realness. And then you will know Santa is really real.

    And then he will write a letter to Santa and sit on his lap and pray to Santa to reveal himself to everyone. Because he knows Santa! Because it is so great to be on fire for Santa. You too can be on fire for Santa, just open your heart! (Never mind about catching Dad putting presents under the tree that time, you just have to ignore what you see and belieeeeve!)

  • 149. cag  |  May 3, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Be True (there’s a misnomer if ever there was one), you believe the unbelievable, you believe contrary to all knowledge. You believe that the earth was created before the sun. You have nothing, nothing, nothing to offer. If you are the best that religion can offer, all I can say is “no sale”. If you are the worst that religion has to offer, it’s still no sale. I have no reason to even believe that jesus in any form as stated in the bible ever existed. No contemporary writings exist about the most important character in the history of christianity. Only decades later does the bible, written to sell a scam, mention jesus.

    You know the drill, have your jesus come visit me, no second hand lackeys, principals only.

    If you will stop proselytizing for a failed, though still practised superstition, I promise to not be offended.

  • 150. Be True  |  May 4, 2012 at 3:25 am

    cag did you read #144

  • 151. cag  |  May 4, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Be True, I do read your superstitious nonsense. I remain a rational human, unconvinced by anyone postulating the existence of gods. How many of these human invented gods have to be discredited before you realize that the god belief you have is wrong? How many people believe in the gods of Rome? How many believed in the gods of Rome 2000 years ago?

    You will never convince me that the earth was created before the sun or that the bible is anything but a collection of lies and threats designed to control the masses and enrich the few. The errors in the bible are so egregious that any analytical individual must reject it as fiction. Genesis is totally unbelievable.

  • 152. Be True  |  May 5, 2012 at 6:16 am

    Cag: You can’t tell me that you feel complete, you must know that even at your best that you feel something is missing.

    We exist body, soul and spirit. Your soul can never be complete until you receive a God-conscious. There will always be an emptiness. You can’t describe why, but something in you feel like there is something missing. This can only be filled when you accept Jesus. Then God will quicken your spirit within and only then do you become whole.

    This is not something that I can describe for you it has to be experienced.

  • 153. cag  |  May 5, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    Be True, do you really think that believing in lies will make one a better person? You, together with the rest of humanity, have zero evidence for soul and spirit, therefore they are lies. What I don’t have is a worry about whether I am one of the “chosen”. It must be a terrible burden to worry about going to hell. I don’t have that Damoclean sword hanging over my head. There is no bogey man hiding under the bed and no god hiding anywhere.

    The difference between “Where’s Waldo” and “Where’s Yahweh” is that Waldo is in the picture.

    It is obvious that your jesus does not intend to friend me, there have been plenty of opportunities, just show up. Nothing against your jesus, but I will not be friending any imaginary character, no matter how long they have been present in fantasy.

    You offer plenty of blather, but no evidence.

  • 154. ubi dubium  |  May 5, 2012 at 8:03 pm

    The only reason that some people have a god-shaped hole in their hearts is that people have been pounding god-shaped nails into them since childhood.

    Souls are imaginary too. The human brain thinks, and when you die it stops and you are gone. Best to use your limited time on earth to create meaning for yourself, and to live as rich and full a life as you can in the time you have.

    No emptiness here. The only emptiness I ever felt was all that time in church when people said that “Jesus will come into your heart” or “you will be filled with the holy spirit” and nothing ever happened. Church was empty, all those promises were empty. Once I stopped expecting anything to happen, life made much more sense. My life is full now, and I have no need to pretend invisible boogy-men exist.

  • 155. Be True  |  May 7, 2012 at 1:45 am

    Ubi- I never knew you were so hurt. I know now why you are so rebellious. Father I pray that you would show Ubi your heart and heal those wounds. Spirit of God please fill the heart of Ubi with acceptance. I Cry out for her Soul. Jesus I know you hear my prayers, I cry out oh God!

  • 156. ubi dubium  |  May 7, 2012 at 7:53 am

    Hurt? Nobody said anything about hurt! I’m not hurt in the least. Just disappointed at the colossal waste of time.

    You are making stuff up again, which is what I expect from evangelists. You have to invent a problem and sell us on the problem before we will buy your solution to the problem. Sorry, no sale.

    You’d better cry out to your god harder, because he isn’t answering you so far. At least, not with my pass-phrase, and without that you are just another delusional person who thinks the thoughts in their own head are coming from an invisible man in the sky.

  • 157. Be True  |  May 7, 2012 at 8:19 am


    O be careful little eyes what you see
    O be careful little ears what you hear
    O be careful little hands what you do
    O be careful little feet where you go
    O be careful little mouth what you say

    I rebuke that which stole your innocence in the Name of Jesus.

    Stop that pass-phrase devil ploy I have already spoken to you about testing the Lord thy God.

    I am sorry your father was never there, I am sorry he never comforted you. I am sorry he was never around and you felt all alone. God wants to restore that He wants you to be freed from the pain. You have from young age facing some alone and tough calls. You cried out to God, but for you He seemed far. It is not the crying out that saves it is the accepting what He had done on the cross – and accepting Him as Lord of your life. do you know what He has done for you on the cross? Go read Isaiah 53. It is in His blood and body.

  • 158. ubi dubium  |  May 7, 2012 at 9:52 am

    Sunday school songs? You have got to be kidding me!

    My father was there for me. He was a teacher and sang barbershop. He was a great guy. Your invisible friend was never there because he isn’t real

    You’d better read your bible again about testing god. It’s full of people testing god – Moses, Elijah, Thomas. If testing god is a devil-ploy, then you just accused them of it too.

    Malachi 3:10 Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house; and thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts….

    So according to your own book it was fine to test god back then. So why not now? (Oh that’s right, because any actual test of god FAILS, because your god is something humans made up. So if you don’t warn your believers not to do it, they might try it and see through the whole con. Couldn’t have that.)

  • 159. Franky Broadcast  |  July 31, 2012 at 2:16 am

    You wasn’t to see religion back in schools? All religions, or just you’re?

  • 160. Franky Broadcast  |  July 31, 2012 at 2:19 am

    You want to see religion back in schools? All religions, or just yours? *

  • 161. Cesar  |  December 19, 2012 at 11:26 am

    Religion has a place and is not in school. School is for learning about historical facts, science and math. It irks me how some people want to put religion everywhere. I don’t see history, science or math be discussed in churches and as Jesus said. Do into others…. Shouldn’t Christians start respecting academics institutions since they want their churches to be respected as well? Prayer in public is unnecessary, however it shouldn’t be prohibited, neither should it be enforced. Let the people do as they please. I don’t think any Christians would like it to visit a school and find their child praying to the non Christian religion of the day. So you think it’s fair to hang a cross in a classroom and assume public prayer with the intention that its meant for Christians? And how about those religions that meditate instead of praying? Meditation is not a 1-2-3 minutes and I’m done deal thing. Respect comes from the understand that no religion is above the next and to assume otherwise is declaring oneself egotistical while the bible calls for humbleness . I don’t believe in prayer but I don’t sit in a restaurant letting everyone know where my faith stands. I don’t need to put up a show when I am comfortable in my own convictions.

  • 162. Abel  |  December 23, 2012 at 5:16 am

    Bro elisoriano can answer you about bible matters. or email him at

  • 163. joe c  |  June 17, 2015 at 3:11 pm

    The only way to have true cummunications with god is meditation… if you did that in public or in a bright place, it probably wouldnt
    Work. Dark and quiet is key, be silent take no thought. Meditation is what binds all religions. The bible is a mystery full of dark sayings, allagories, and parrables. If you take it lierally it leads to death, if read in the spirit, it gives everlasting life. Thats why we keep fighting each other over religion. The bible justifies taking land from arabs, the koran says take it back! Jews are the chosen people, bur only if you are a jew inwardly, which happens when you meditate. Check out bill donahue ” hidden meanings”

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.



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